Berger to introduce 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting Bullet

[jonthomps]

MudRunner,

I appreciate your confidence in me, however I need to clarify.

The BC's we were talking about for this bullet prior to it being made were all estimates because the bullets weren't available for testing at that time.

Now that the bullets have been made, I've actually tested them for BC. The actual tested performance is:

G1 BC = 0.755 (Average from 3000 to 1500 fps)
G7 BC = 0.387 (Valid for all speeds)

This is like 5% lower than initially predicted but still very high. To put it in perspective, the form factor (drag) is as low or lower (splitting hairs) as any Berger Bullet, and the BC is 4% higher than the .30 cal 230 grain.

More info to come soon.

-Bryan

This is what I like about Berger (and Brian) - candid honesty. Thanks, I'll definitely keep buying Berger because of this!

 

[chuckhammer]

In calibers of .308 or less, a G7 BC >.400 is a tough nut to crack using conventional rifle bullet designs. I think it's time for smooth bores shooting fin stabilized discarding sabots. Like a mini M829 as used in the 120mm M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams. Sub-caliber tungsten projectiles with a high L/D fired inside an aluminum sabot. I've drawn some stuff up on scrap paper while bored sitting in meetings. The biggest hump to get over is cost. I think it would only make sense for highly specialized military and clandestine applications where high cost and low volume would be acceptable. Think of a 50 BMG class cartridge firing a .264 caliber, finned tungsten dart 3" long weighing 650 grains at your standard 2800 fps. The fin stabilization and smooth bore obviate the need for the impossibly fast twist rate needed to spin stabilize such a long, heavy projectile.

Bryan, what's the G7 BC of a VLD-style .264 projectile 3" long and 650 grains? It must be well past .7 or even .9. I believe that weight and length are about right for that style of projectile in tungsten (.698 lbm / in^3).

 

[chuckhammer]

Even better, neck the BMG case up to nearly straight-wall dimensions. This is essentially what the 12 Gauge From Hell represents. Now the sabot has about double the area upon which the gas pressure can impinge. Similar to a 200 grain .30-06 vs. the same weight bullet from a .35 Wheelen. The larger bore is always more effective at accelerating a constant mass. Since our 650 grain .264 projectile hasn't changed (only the lightweight aluminum sabotage has gotten larger) we should then be able to reach significantly higher velocities for the same max pressure. MV scales close to linearly with area holding everything else the same. Conservatively, 5000 fps, then.

To quote the Barenaked Ladies song, "If I had a million dollars...."

 

[JeffVN]

I recently heard that these 195s are going to require a 1:8.0" twist to be fully stable, NOT the originally stated 1:8.5". Is this accurate? IF this is correct then everyone who bought an 8.5 twist barrel in anticipation of the release is going to have an expensive tomato stake in their inventory.

JEffVN

 

[Edd]

I recently heard that these 195s are going to require a 1:8.0" twist to be fully stable, NOT the originally stated 1:8.5". Is this accurate? IF this is correct then everyone who bought an 8.5 twist barrel in anticipation of the release is going to have an expensive tomato stake in their inventory.

JEffVN

See post #398 & 399.

At sea level, 0°, and 2800 fps, you will need a 1:7.75" twist.

At 6000 ft altitude, 32°, and 2800 fps, you will need an 1:8.75" twist.

At 8000 ft altitude, 50°, and 3000 fps, a 1:9.5" twist will work.

 

[trueblue]

MudRunner,

I appreciate your confidence in me, however I need to clarify.

The BC's we were talking about for this bullet prior to it being made were all estimates because the bullets weren't available for testing at that time.

Now that the bullets have been made, I've actually tested them for BC. The actual tested performance is:

G1 BC = 0.755 (Average from 3000 to 1500 fps)
G7 BC = 0.387 (Valid for all speeds)

This is like 5% lower than initially predicted but still very high. To put it in perspective, the form factor (drag) is as low or lower (splitting hairs) as any Berger Bullet, and the BC is 4% higher than the .30 cal 230 grain.

More info to come soon.

-Bryan

That is impressive. Good news!

 

[JeffVN]

Thanks Edd. I'll go look at thos posts.

Jeffvn

 

[jett]

Bryan or Eric,

Are you able to confirm that the new 195 Berger bullet will be a hybrid hunting version?

Thanks

 

[barefooter56]

Bryan or Eric,

Are you able to confirm that the new 195 Berger bullet will be a hybrid hunting version?

Thanks

Jett,
Yes it is.

 

[7mmShooter]

Phil, any idea if we'll see an ABM load with the 195? It would be the 230 Hybrid 300WM load for us 7mmRM shooters

 

[wyoranger]

Phil, any idea if we'll see an ABM load with the 195? It would be the 230 Hybrid 300WM load for us 7mmRM shooters

It's a sad reality given how good the abm ammo is, but it's highly doubtful that a product that requires a faster than standard twist barrel to stabilize would be released. The 230 at least stabilizes out of standard 10 twist barrel. Here's hoping that barrel standard barrel twists get faster over time.

 

[FEENIX]

It's a sad reality given how good the abm ammo is, but it's highly doubtful that a product that requires a faster than standard twist barrel to stabilize would be released. The 230 at least stabilizes out of standard 10 twist barrel. Here's hoping that barrel standard barrel twists get faster over time.

Sorry but don't let the "standard" slow you down (no pun intended ), re-barrel to the recommended twist and be done with it. I suspect that's what most will do here, they just want the best BC bullet available for their intended purpose.

Cheers!

 

[barefooter56]

Sorry but don't let the "standard" slow you down (no pun intended ), re-barrel to the recommended twist and be done with it. I suspect that's what most will do here, they just want the best BC bullet available for their intended purpose.

Cheers!

Guys,
No word on whether or not this will be an ABM offering. Bullet is way to new. We have done A LOT of testing on this bullet with great results but need to get you guys input too! In the mean time . The best way to figure what twist rate you may need would be to use our TWIST RATE calculator on our website.
G1 BC = .755 (1500-3000 FPS)
G7 BC = .387
BULLET OAL = 1.648
You enter your altitude , estimated velocity, and try different twist rates ( 1-8 , 1-7.5, 1-7, ETC) . Hit calculate and see what SG ( stability factor) you get.
Thanks again for your patience on this guys!

 

[FEENIX]

Guys,
No word on whether or not this will be an ABM offering. Bullet is way to new. We have done A LOT of testing on this bullet with great results but need to get you guys input too! In the mean time . The best way to figure what twist rate you may need would be to use our TWIST RATE calculator on our website.
G1 BC = .755 (1500-3000 FPS)
G7 BC = .387
BULLET OAL = 1.648
You enter your altitude , estimated velocity, and try different twist rates ( 1-8 , 1-7.5, 1-7, ETC) . Hit calculate and see what SG ( stability factor) you get.
Thanks again for your patience on this guys!

Phil,

I think you misconstrued my response; if and when the 195 is out, get the required barrel twist rate (which is already available from various barrel manufacturers and most members already know what is required esp. those that follow this thread religiously) to stabilize it as you noted, no need to wait for any "standard" ... "we" don't need no stinking standards rolleyes to be established by whoever to enjoy the benefits ... that's all I'm saying.

Cheers!

Ed