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<blockquote data-quote="4ked Horn" data-source="post: 97098" data-attributes="member: 11"><p>They both sound adequate. I will give you a few opinions and info that may help sort things out.</p><p></p><p>First is the hinges. They are insignificant to the security of the safe IF the hinge side of the door has either bolts like you mentioned or a FULL LENGTH flange or lip that will prevent the removal of the door should the external hinges become removed. If I were to buy a safe that compared equally in every aspect to another except for the internal or external hinges I would get the external ones in hopes that the theives were idiots and wasted all their time busting the hinges. I would also locate the safe so the door would not interfere with a nearby wall for at least 90 degrees of opening.</p><p></p><p>The heat activated seal is called an "entombescent seal". Comong from the word Tomb it will expand as you said and then become VERY heat resistant. Its purpose is to trap the moisture in a safe without alowing excessive pressures to build up. Why do we want to hold moisture? Well keep reading.</p><p></p><p>The fire rating on a safe will indicate the ammount of time that a (sample test) safe was cooked before it was removed from the oven. Normally a UL Listed 30 minute safe will be put in the oven and brought up to temp on a very controled heat curve. It is then cooked for the ammount of time it is trying to be rated for. Half hour, one hour or two hours normally. It is then removed from the oven but the test is not over yet. As the safe sits there the internal temp is still being monitered. If the inside space of the safe goes over 350 it will fail the rating. It is monitered untill the inside begins a steady downward progression of temp indicating that it will not rise again. How can the inside temp continue to rise? Keep reading. This is the cool part and the part many people don't know.</p><p></p><p>The sheetrock type liner used in most quality safes is there, NOT as an insulator (except for items leaning against the wall of the safe, but as a way to molecularly hold water. When the safe heats up the water is released into the safe. It creates an environment that is 100% humidity. In this environment the temperature CAN NOT rise above 212 degrees (if I remember my instructor correctly). The safe, if it were welded shut would explode. The seal and the little hole in te back that is sold as an electrical accessory hole are there to allow the pressure to remain low but still hold in the moisture. In a fire the handles will melt off and the safe will sit there and whistle and wheese but it wont explode. If there is not enough moisture to last through the cooking AND cooling phase the hot steel shell can cause the inside of the safe to rise above 350 degrees. This results in a fire rating failure. Since only one safe of that particular size and model has to be tested the safe company might spend the previous day blowing humid air into the safe for that extra bit of moisture for the test. Sneaky huh?</p><p></p><p>That is why so many anti rust devices are sold for gun safes. If you live in a humid area I would invest in one of them. Also if you put papers in your gun safe I would reccomend placing them in a microwave rated zip lock type bag.</p><p></p><p>I would only consider a safe with a UL or other reputable fire rating (one that gives a cook temp like 1400 deg for example. Also if the safe is in a basement or lower floor the temps will be lower in a fire than if it was on a top floor. This may be a 1000 degree or more difference. Also if located on an upper floor count on the safe falling through the floor. DONT PUT IT OVER A BEDROOM or a valuable item like a classic car.</p><p></p><p>A 10 guage wall is thicker than a 12 guage wall but not much.</p><p></p><p>Hard plate in front of the internal lock is good. Alot of hard plate is not that much better. If the crooks are going through the hard plate to manipulate the lock they will have the right tools to defeat it no matter how thick it is. It is there to keep regular drills out.</p><p></p><p>Any normal electronic lock will allow a battery change from the OUTSIDE OF THE SAFE. </p><p></p><p>At least one relocker is a must. Most good combo locks have one to seize up the lock if the face is drilled and the guts are punched into the body of the safe. Many locks have 2.</p><p></p><p>I preffer a dial lock over the electronic for one reason. I want to feel the dial so I have a chance to feel the lock acting up BEFORE IT QUITS WORKING. Electronic locks just stop opening. Mechanical ones usually give you a sign. Some odd sound or a click or they become stiff to turn. An open safe is MUCH MUCH cheaper to repair than a locked and defective safe. A locksmith can often set your combo to one number making the safe very quick to open. It does not reduce your security as long as you never tell anyone you did this. If you tell then it is very easy to try all the numbers and get in.</p><p></p><p>Lastly, most gun safes are informally rated as a "TL5". This is a tool resistance rating. What it means (as far as a UL rating goes) is this: Using tools commonly found in a residential garage, it will take longer than 5 minutes to create a 6"x6" opening in THE DOOR. The UL tecnitions can try any tool on their "common tool" list for 5 minutes. They even get to see the inside of the door to plan their attack and the time only is counted when the tool is in contact with the door. And they can try as many different tools as they want. So they get 5 minutes with a hole saw and if that dosen't work they get 5 minutes with a hammer and chissle then a drill and a sawsall and an axe and the list goes on. So this is a fairly encompasing rating. Most commercial safes have a TL30 rating. But remember, THIS RATING IS ONLY FOR THE DOOR. The sides of the safe can be made from cardboard and it will still get this rating. If they also rate the walls it will have a rating like TL30x6 or TL60x6 meaning all 6 sides. The comercial rating tool list is also a bit more comprehensive. There are also torch (TH) and explosives (TX) ratings. There has never been a safe that has gotten a TL,TH,TX 60 x6 UL Labs rating but I understand they have a criteria outlined for testing it if someone wants to give it a try.</p><p></p><p>Hope this helps you make a decision.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="4ked Horn, post: 97098, member: 11"] They both sound adequate. I will give you a few opinions and info that may help sort things out. First is the hinges. They are insignificant to the security of the safe IF the hinge side of the door has either bolts like you mentioned or a FULL LENGTH flange or lip that will prevent the removal of the door should the external hinges become removed. If I were to buy a safe that compared equally in every aspect to another except for the internal or external hinges I would get the external ones in hopes that the theives were idiots and wasted all their time busting the hinges. I would also locate the safe so the door would not interfere with a nearby wall for at least 90 degrees of opening. The heat activated seal is called an "entombescent seal". Comong from the word Tomb it will expand as you said and then become VERY heat resistant. Its purpose is to trap the moisture in a safe without alowing excessive pressures to build up. Why do we want to hold moisture? Well keep reading. The fire rating on a safe will indicate the ammount of time that a (sample test) safe was cooked before it was removed from the oven. Normally a UL Listed 30 minute safe will be put in the oven and brought up to temp on a very controled heat curve. It is then cooked for the ammount of time it is trying to be rated for. Half hour, one hour or two hours normally. It is then removed from the oven but the test is not over yet. As the safe sits there the internal temp is still being monitered. If the inside space of the safe goes over 350 it will fail the rating. It is monitered untill the inside begins a steady downward progression of temp indicating that it will not rise again. How can the inside temp continue to rise? Keep reading. This is the cool part and the part many people don't know. The sheetrock type liner used in most quality safes is there, NOT as an insulator (except for items leaning against the wall of the safe, but as a way to molecularly hold water. When the safe heats up the water is released into the safe. It creates an environment that is 100% humidity. In this environment the temperature CAN NOT rise above 212 degrees (if I remember my instructor correctly). The safe, if it were welded shut would explode. The seal and the little hole in te back that is sold as an electrical accessory hole are there to allow the pressure to remain low but still hold in the moisture. In a fire the handles will melt off and the safe will sit there and whistle and wheese but it wont explode. If there is not enough moisture to last through the cooking AND cooling phase the hot steel shell can cause the inside of the safe to rise above 350 degrees. This results in a fire rating failure. Since only one safe of that particular size and model has to be tested the safe company might spend the previous day blowing humid air into the safe for that extra bit of moisture for the test. Sneaky huh? That is why so many anti rust devices are sold for gun safes. If you live in a humid area I would invest in one of them. Also if you put papers in your gun safe I would reccomend placing them in a microwave rated zip lock type bag. I would only consider a safe with a UL or other reputable fire rating (one that gives a cook temp like 1400 deg for example. Also if the safe is in a basement or lower floor the temps will be lower in a fire than if it was on a top floor. This may be a 1000 degree or more difference. Also if located on an upper floor count on the safe falling through the floor. DONT PUT IT OVER A BEDROOM or a valuable item like a classic car. A 10 guage wall is thicker than a 12 guage wall but not much. Hard plate in front of the internal lock is good. Alot of hard plate is not that much better. If the crooks are going through the hard plate to manipulate the lock they will have the right tools to defeat it no matter how thick it is. It is there to keep regular drills out. Any normal electronic lock will allow a battery change from the OUTSIDE OF THE SAFE. At least one relocker is a must. Most good combo locks have one to seize up the lock if the face is drilled and the guts are punched into the body of the safe. Many locks have 2. I preffer a dial lock over the electronic for one reason. I want to feel the dial so I have a chance to feel the lock acting up BEFORE IT QUITS WORKING. Electronic locks just stop opening. Mechanical ones usually give you a sign. Some odd sound or a click or they become stiff to turn. An open safe is MUCH MUCH cheaper to repair than a locked and defective safe. A locksmith can often set your combo to one number making the safe very quick to open. It does not reduce your security as long as you never tell anyone you did this. If you tell then it is very easy to try all the numbers and get in. Lastly, most gun safes are informally rated as a "TL5". This is a tool resistance rating. What it means (as far as a UL rating goes) is this: Using tools commonly found in a residential garage, it will take longer than 5 minutes to create a 6"x6" opening in THE DOOR. The UL tecnitions can try any tool on their "common tool" list for 5 minutes. They even get to see the inside of the door to plan their attack and the time only is counted when the tool is in contact with the door. And they can try as many different tools as they want. So they get 5 minutes with a hole saw and if that dosen't work they get 5 minutes with a hammer and chissle then a drill and a sawsall and an axe and the list goes on. So this is a fairly encompasing rating. Most commercial safes have a TL30 rating. But remember, THIS RATING IS ONLY FOR THE DOOR. The sides of the safe can be made from cardboard and it will still get this rating. If they also rate the walls it will have a rating like TL30x6 or TL60x6 meaning all 6 sides. The comercial rating tool list is also a bit more comprehensive. There are also torch (TH) and explosives (TX) ratings. There has never been a safe that has gotten a TL,TH,TX 60 x6 UL Labs rating but I understand they have a criteria outlined for testing it if someone wants to give it a try. Hope this helps you make a decision. [/QUOTE]
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