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Ultimate Scope, input please
- Thread starter Pete Lincoln
- Start date
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Lets start by getting rid of the traditional design, why not a straight tube 50mm or 40mm? The diameter could be reduced towards to ocular end (imagine a Swarovski SLC binocular 15x60 cut in half so you have a monocular-that sort of size and construction or a long toilet tube if you like but someone has the rights on that one I think). As part of the body an intgegral mounting system that goes straight onto a 1913 picatinny rail. Lets do away with rings and mounts they are the weak link in the system, a pain in the butt to lap and come loose anyway.I think S&B used or still do a STGSNAG system that was one-piece machined as part of the tube, so it can be done. A big diameter tube to get as much elevation / windage sdjustment in as possible (40mm or 50mm should do) with an S&B PM2 type turret system.
Lens`s about time we had HD /APO lens`s like the top end spotting scopes also scratch proof.
So with top lens`s and a load of internal adjustment how about some good magnification. Start by having a 5x zoom ratio. The new S&B 5-25x56 has it and also USO. Something in the 10-50x50 range to give Nightforce serious competition (who else produces a good high magnification zoom scope (40x)with decent amounts of internal elevation)? Work down in ratios and scope size from that. Choice is good.
Also as buyer choice first and second focal plain reticle placement options. I like the Klein reticle but the more choice the better. Also lit reticle options, normal battery type (single dot please not the whole reticle so you dont see the target). or tritium options so you don`t need a battery (Hensoldt did it). On battery models the illumination should be easily adjustable, like S&B or Hesoldt / Zeiss. Don`t mind where the adjustment is provided you dont need a screwdriver to do it.
Now I will be in a minority of one but I would not want other technology in a scope. Lasers are nice but it is electric and breaks. I would sooner break a laser bino / monocular and replace it than a whole scope because the laser bit broke. Anyway Swarovski tried it, did not seem to work, at the time a 600m laser was cutting edge now it is only good for golfers.
Ok so I dont want to be a Ludite when it comes to technology crap. On the wish list I read something (dont know if I was baffled by science or ******** but I am too stupid to understand it) that it is possible to detect changes in air particles due to wind speed. Not sure if wavelength or ironization ? was changing but whatever it could be detected and the detection unit could detect along along a beam path, say 10m wide and high out to 600m or longer. So waht you ended up with was wind speed analysis right where your bullet was going. Now if you could stick that into a scope with a little LED telling you your average windspeed from muzzle to taget I would put up with electronic crap in the scope.
Really like everyone else ideas, especially the OD green and waterproof lens covers also ability to use camea size threads for AI skylight and polar filers.
David.
Lens`s about time we had HD /APO lens`s like the top end spotting scopes also scratch proof.
So with top lens`s and a load of internal adjustment how about some good magnification. Start by having a 5x zoom ratio. The new S&B 5-25x56 has it and also USO. Something in the 10-50x50 range to give Nightforce serious competition (who else produces a good high magnification zoom scope (40x)with decent amounts of internal elevation)? Work down in ratios and scope size from that. Choice is good.
Also as buyer choice first and second focal plain reticle placement options. I like the Klein reticle but the more choice the better. Also lit reticle options, normal battery type (single dot please not the whole reticle so you dont see the target). or tritium options so you don`t need a battery (Hensoldt did it). On battery models the illumination should be easily adjustable, like S&B or Hesoldt / Zeiss. Don`t mind where the adjustment is provided you dont need a screwdriver to do it.
Now I will be in a minority of one but I would not want other technology in a scope. Lasers are nice but it is electric and breaks. I would sooner break a laser bino / monocular and replace it than a whole scope because the laser bit broke. Anyway Swarovski tried it, did not seem to work, at the time a 600m laser was cutting edge now it is only good for golfers.
Ok so I dont want to be a Ludite when it comes to technology crap. On the wish list I read something (dont know if I was baffled by science or ******** but I am too stupid to understand it) that it is possible to detect changes in air particles due to wind speed. Not sure if wavelength or ironization ? was changing but whatever it could be detected and the detection unit could detect along along a beam path, say 10m wide and high out to 600m or longer. So waht you ended up with was wind speed analysis right where your bullet was going. Now if you could stick that into a scope with a little LED telling you your average windspeed from muzzle to taget I would put up with electronic crap in the scope.
Really like everyone else ideas, especially the OD green and waterproof lens covers also ability to use camea size threads for AI skylight and polar filers.
David.
craigp40
Well-Known Member
Not even sure if this is technically capable of being done, but I'll throw it out there simply because I could see some use in having it. How about some mechanism that allows you choose whether you want 1 click to equal 1 MOA, 1/2 MOA, 1/4 MOA or 1/8 MOA?
Ian M
Well-Known Member
Pete,
All of the suggestions are good but how about something that will ensure the **** cross-hairs are straight up and down when the scope is put on a rifle. I have yet to put a scope on square. Have tried lots of accessories, plumb lines etc. but damned if I can get the suckers on straight up and down - something about inherently being 10 degrees off plumb... Swaro introduced more models with the integral base, maybe that would be worth considering. Get rid of scope bases by machining them into the bottom of the scope.
Good luck with your information collection!
All of the suggestions are good but how about something that will ensure the **** cross-hairs are straight up and down when the scope is put on a rifle. I have yet to put a scope on square. Have tried lots of accessories, plumb lines etc. but damned if I can get the suckers on straight up and down - something about inherently being 10 degrees off plumb... Swaro introduced more models with the integral base, maybe that would be worth considering. Get rid of scope bases by machining them into the bottom of the scope.
Good luck with your information collection!
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Guys, thanks for the input, keep it coming, some good points, ive cut and pasted em and i'm putting a presentation together to show the R&D team. You guys are talking direct to the R&D of one of the worlds most prominent optics companies. This is a great opertunity.
I don't see Buck Rogers type kit bieng the out come, swarovski treid the intergral range finder and it was a flop( bad R&B and poor market research) fire control similar to a MBT would be unethical for hunting and prone to malfunction in a war environment.
Intregral bases are interesting, and some of the scope manufacturers have them, but to me they limit mounting options and are not a field tough as a good set of rings. An internal anti cant device should help with the mounting cant problems, i have long since marked my scope tubes for TDC, this would be a good addition, a reference mark, of course there can be problems with in accurate machined recievers, bieng able to rotate the scope to line it up with the vertical centre of the bore does help us cancell this out.
This is a super opertunity for all us guys, long range hunters, snipers, F class shooters, LE, Mil and Civie alike. I aim to make the most of it for us..
Cheers Pete /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I don't see Buck Rogers type kit bieng the out come, swarovski treid the intergral range finder and it was a flop( bad R&B and poor market research) fire control similar to a MBT would be unethical for hunting and prone to malfunction in a war environment.
Intregral bases are interesting, and some of the scope manufacturers have them, but to me they limit mounting options and are not a field tough as a good set of rings. An internal anti cant device should help with the mounting cant problems, i have long since marked my scope tubes for TDC, this would be a good addition, a reference mark, of course there can be problems with in accurate machined recievers, bieng able to rotate the scope to line it up with the vertical centre of the bore does help us cancell this out.
This is a super opertunity for all us guys, long range hunters, snipers, F class shooters, LE, Mil and Civie alike. I aim to make the most of it for us..
Cheers Pete /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
G
Guest
Guest
Pete,
I am excited about this....
please keep us posted....
Ric
I am excited about this....
please keep us posted....
Ric
For target shooting could something better than a NXS be done, like.
.5x zoom ratio, say 7-35 or 10-50
.A more precise side parallax system where the lens is not moved on a transverse fork bar. (May be some form of spring and cam system). To stop backlash issues and slop under recoil as with loopy etc.
. APO lens`s. The extra lens would be worth the weight.
. May be something other than a round center tube, being round you get a restriction towards the ends of elevation / windage adjustments due to the round tube. Some form of square tube and erector cell may give max amount of adjustment. Anyway similar or more MOA adjustment than NXS needed.
. S&B PM2 turrets and lit reticle system.
. Keep the euro adjustable eyepiece +/- 4 diaopter range. Also keep the zoom ring as normal, not NXS style.
. On the wish list would a 2x converter (like Swarovski have on their binos be possible) without magnifying the reticle. Imagine you could have a 5-25x scope that would become 10-50x. The 2x could be an add-on or integral to the scope.
David.
.5x zoom ratio, say 7-35 or 10-50
.A more precise side parallax system where the lens is not moved on a transverse fork bar. (May be some form of spring and cam system). To stop backlash issues and slop under recoil as with loopy etc.
. APO lens`s. The extra lens would be worth the weight.
. May be something other than a round center tube, being round you get a restriction towards the ends of elevation / windage adjustments due to the round tube. Some form of square tube and erector cell may give max amount of adjustment. Anyway similar or more MOA adjustment than NXS needed.
. S&B PM2 turrets and lit reticle system.
. Keep the euro adjustable eyepiece +/- 4 diaopter range. Also keep the zoom ring as normal, not NXS style.
. On the wish list would a 2x converter (like Swarovski have on their binos be possible) without magnifying the reticle. Imagine you could have a 5-25x scope that would become 10-50x. The 2x could be an add-on or integral to the scope.
David.
DS
I thought about a "doubler type" system/lense too but I can't quite figure out how it'd work and be repeatable under removal and re-installation. I guess we'll leave that to the engineers if they can figure it out.
I also wonder a bit about airtight lens covers and the propensity of them to fog up under changing atmospheric conditions. I guess a fella could install them in a dehumidified weather condition or chamber but other than that I think they'll fog a bit if sealed. Maybe a screw-on lens cover with breathable but waterproof side vents like those on tactical goggles.
Ian's post about the integral scope ring thing so the scope can be mounted plumb had me thinking too. At first I though that a scope tube with two attachment points like fixed rings but then I think of how often I need the rings at varying distances so the fixed rings seemed to fail that test. But now I'm thinking of a Picatinny type rail type system milled right into the scope body. The rings are nothing more than two Picatinny clamps back-to-back, one side clamps to the rifle base while the other side clamps to the scope. (More low probability wish stuff of questionable value I guess.)
A non-slack parallax system would be nice, I need to adjust mine every few shots on the Leupolds (I don't notice any such need on the NXS).
IF... there were an external type doubler lens system I'd rather have that than an internal variable system. I'd much rather have a VERY tough single power internals scope that can be manually boosted, than a FAIRLY tough variable power scope. I DO NOT have a need for a fixed power scope either at the high end or low end, I'd like to be able to stalk hunt on low power (4x or so) and be able to long range hunt/shoot at 16x to 24x...I don't relly ever use the in-between powers... all or none it seems. "Make a fixed power scope that I can drive nails with and then make a screw on external lens (or lenses) that I can add to boost the power 2x, 4x, 6x, etc."
I thought about a "doubler type" system/lense too but I can't quite figure out how it'd work and be repeatable under removal and re-installation. I guess we'll leave that to the engineers if they can figure it out.
I also wonder a bit about airtight lens covers and the propensity of them to fog up under changing atmospheric conditions. I guess a fella could install them in a dehumidified weather condition or chamber but other than that I think they'll fog a bit if sealed. Maybe a screw-on lens cover with breathable but waterproof side vents like those on tactical goggles.
Ian's post about the integral scope ring thing so the scope can be mounted plumb had me thinking too. At first I though that a scope tube with two attachment points like fixed rings but then I think of how often I need the rings at varying distances so the fixed rings seemed to fail that test. But now I'm thinking of a Picatinny type rail type system milled right into the scope body. The rings are nothing more than two Picatinny clamps back-to-back, one side clamps to the rifle base while the other side clamps to the scope. (More low probability wish stuff of questionable value I guess.)
A non-slack parallax system would be nice, I need to adjust mine every few shots on the Leupolds (I don't notice any such need on the NXS).
IF... there were an external type doubler lens system I'd rather have that than an internal variable system. I'd much rather have a VERY tough single power internals scope that can be manually boosted, than a FAIRLY tough variable power scope. I DO NOT have a need for a fixed power scope either at the high end or low end, I'd like to be able to stalk hunt on low power (4x or so) and be able to long range hunt/shoot at 16x to 24x...I don't relly ever use the in-between powers... all or none it seems. "Make a fixed power scope that I can drive nails with and then make a screw on external lens (or lenses) that I can add to boost the power 2x, 4x, 6x, etc."
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Some of what you guys ar asking for is already available, the Germans have been using a rail system for mounting scopes for years, its called a "schiene" but has been a dove tail either male or female. I can see a point to Dave's picatinny, **** good idea Dave.. thats exactly why i posted the question, i knew you guys would come up with the best ideas. It would need some new mounting/fixing hardware, but i bet Marty could come up with that.
The magnification doubler has been available here for years, but i much prefer a spotting scope. I would,if the doublerwas to be an option, have it clamp around the eyepiece like some of the NVD's do. Pete
The magnification doubler has been available here for years, but i much prefer a spotting scope. I would,if the doublerwas to be an option, have it clamp around the eyepiece like some of the NVD's do. Pete
wapiti13
Well-Known Member
Pete, For a true hunting situation, it would be great to have a 3X9 or 4X10 in a small 1" tube variety that is small and light (like the Swarovski AV 3X9). Short and light works great on these short mag type rifles if you plan on carrying it (like the Montana 8400). A heavy scope just doesn't make sense. Burris just brought out a line, but quality, field of view, and optics just isn't there. A 32mm objective for mounting low, around 11-12 ounces, quality optics and glass, mildot reticle, high quality adjustments, etc. would sell in this country. Swarovski just announced their TDS reticle in the AV 3X9. Up to this year they kept saying no way. The market must have changed their mind. I much prefer a good quality etched mildot over the TDS given a choice. Just some thoughts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
