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Remington under fire
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 436790" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>I have worked with alot of Rem triggers, ranging from the old 721 and 722 triggers, XP-100 Standard Rem 700 and the new model as well(not much improvement).</p><p> </p><p>In my opinion, they are what they are, like most factory triggers they have their faults which are often exaggerated by user error.</p><p> </p><p>I would guess I have worked on nearly 1000 Rem 700 triggers over the years. Of those, I have had eight that I would say were seriously dangerous when they came into the shop but upon looking into the problems deeper I found out the reason.</p><p> </p><p>Four of those triggers would fire when the safety was moved to the off position but why. Was it a poor sear angle, NOPE, not at all, in fact all had positive sear engagement angles which means when struck or impacted, the triggers sear engagement will increase instead of slip off and allow the rifle to fire.</p><p> </p><p>What was the problem. Well, shooters that THOUGHT they were cleaning their rifles well and allowing solvent and more importantly oil to seap down into the trigger mechanisms. Some actually knew this was happening. Well over time, this solvent and oil turns into a sticky, hard substance and often times if the safety is on and the trigger was moved at all, it could be held in its rearward position. When the safety was turned off, BANG!!!</p><p> </p><p>Trigger problem, NOPE, user error. I cleaned every one of those triggers up properly and every one of them functioned perfectly well and passed impact testing and proved to be safe when used CORRECTLY.</p><p> </p><p>Three of these BAD Rem 700s were another case of incorrect care. In one example which was the first time I had seen this happen. The customer had a love afair with gun oil and coated everything with it, including bolt and striker assembly. Well, he took his rifle out one morning hunting. Had a good buck walk out in front of him and a faint click was all he heard......</p><p> </p><p>Walked back to his truck, out the rifle in and headed home. About half way home, the rifle fired sitting next to him on the seat. Luckily he had the rifles muzzle pointed in a safe direction and all he got was a hole blown in his floorboard and some ringing ears. </p><p> </p><p>He brought the rifle to my shop and I could not get the rifle to repeat what had happened, with an empty chamber of course this time. It took nearly 20 minutes talking to this guy but finally he started giving me details of the hunt. Apparently it was quite cold when he was hunting, below zero in fact.</p><p> </p><p>The trigger had proven safe so after hearing this I pulled the bolt apart and the striker assembly was so gubbed up with oil it was a mess. I asked him how in the hell did all this oil get into the bolt, he said that is how you keep them working smooth!!!</p><p> </p><p>I put the rifle in my freezer and told him to come back in the morning. That morning when he arrived I pulled the rifle out of the freezer and set it by the heater. We talked for a few minutes and then CLICK!!!!</p><p> </p><p>I told him he made two mistakes, one, putting oil in the bolt but even more importantly, leaving the rifle loaded when he got into the truck.</p><p> </p><p>The last and only trigger I have seen from Remington which I would say was honestly unsafe had a very negative sear angle and when it came from the factory the trigger was set at around 8 lbs. With this pull weight, it was enough to keep the sear engaged, when I tried to adjust the trigger down to a 3 lb pull, it would easily slip off. The customer just had me replace that trigger with a quality aftermarket trigger and the problem was solved.</p><p> </p><p>Those are the only instances where I would say a Rem 700 came in that was unsafe but all but one was because of the actual trigger design.</p><p> </p><p>Now, with that said, let me state that I have had dozens of Rem 700 rifles come in that were unsafe but not because of what Remington did or how they designed their triggers.</p><p> </p><p>Some of these were simply because the trigger mechanism was very dirty with fine gritty sand or dirt, again improper care.</p><p> </p><p>Most however were from one simple reason, the triggers were messed with by someone that had no idea what they were doing. It is not hard to get the trigger pull on a Rem 700 down to very comfortable levels, its quite another thing to be able to prove the trigger set to those pull levels are safe and will function properly.</p><p> </p><p>There are WAY to many out there that THINK they know how to adjust a Rem 700 trigger but very few know how to test to prove its safe. There are just as many so called PART TIME gunsmiths out there that have no business working on any triggers.</p><p> </p><p>The Rem 700 factory trigger should in most cases never be tuned lighter then 2.5 lbs and I prefer 3.0 lbs. They are not designed for lighter pull weights but many out there want 1.5 to 2 lb trigger pulls and often even much less then this. Can you get this, yep, is it safe, seldom.</p><p> </p><p>That is not to say some Rem 700 triggers can not safely be tuned to this level. I have seen many over the years that would easily allow tuning down to 1 lb or even a bit less and be perfectly safe when used as a trigger of this pull weight should be used, but in the vast majority of cases, the pull weight of a Rem 700 when set much below 2.5 lbs becomes very inconsistant and that is not a good sign. A neutral or negative sear engagement will result in a slip fire if the rifle is impacted.</p><p> </p><p>When testing a tuned Rem 700 trigger, several things need to be looked at before letting it out the door. </p><p> </p><p>-Trigger assembly needs to be totally cleaned</p><p>-Contacting parts need to be inspected for flacky and chipping chrome plating which can be a common problem with older triggers. If present, replace parts.</p><p>-Sear engagement angle needs to be proven</p><p>-Sear engagement needs to be lubed with a quality lube that will not migrate or stiffen up in cold weather. (some will argue this, so be it)</p><p>-Trigger pull SHOULD increase in pull weight after you engage the safety and release it again (sign of positive sear angle)</p><p>-With safety on, trigger should be pulled completely to the rear, released slowly and safety dropped smartly, better not fire and trigger pull should increase compared to not putting safety on before firing.</p><p>-Trigger must withstand 10 good smacks with a non marring mallet and trigger pull should be heavier after impacts then before. Again, this tells you trigger has a positive sear angle.</p><p>-Owner should be instructed to keep trigger mechanism clean</p><p>-Owner is told to NEVER carry rifle loaded when moving in the field, even with safety on, NEVER carry a loaded weapon walking around in the field (number one mistake by most that get accidentally shot)</p><p> </p><p>IF the adjusted trigger has a lighter trigger pull after dropping the safety compared to just testing the trigger normally, sear engagement is negative. </p><p> </p><p>IF the trigger pull decreases after the impact test, again negative sear angle.</p><p> </p><p>In either case, trigger needs to be replaced. Problem is this rarely happens and many just decide to live with the trigger if they even know of the situation at all which is most common.</p><p> </p><p>Finally, I feel bad for these families but there are very few documented cases where the problem can not be tracked back to user error. Again, main thing, DO NOT WALK AROUND WITH A LOADED RIFLE and depend on the safety to keep you alive!!!</p><p> </p><p>In all honesty, I wish there had never been a safety invented because all if does is allow many to depend on them instead of paying attention and handling a firearm correctly.</p><p> </p><p>In nearly every situation, had the rifle been pointed in a safe direction no damage would have been done and in even more situations, if the firearm had not had a live round in the chamber after walking around all day or when grabbing the rifle out of the truck or any other situation, lives could have been saved.</p><p> </p><p>Remember a rifle can not kill someone if its not pointed at someone....... We have sadly forgotten how to safely handle firearms and alot of that is because we do not require everyone to take hunters safety. We believe that someone that is an adult will automatically handle a firearm safely and responsibly, BULL!!! Everyone should be required to take a course to safely handle firearms.</p><p> </p><p>So while I am sure there are design flaws in the Rem 700, I could take any factory trigger and find different or similiar flaws as well. </p><p> </p><p>Should Remington have handled things differently, certainly, but I believe most of this is media driven and of that Remington WILL have to pay dearly, possibly putting it out of business. Is that a good thing...........</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 436790, member: 10"] I have worked with alot of Rem triggers, ranging from the old 721 and 722 triggers, XP-100 Standard Rem 700 and the new model as well(not much improvement). In my opinion, they are what they are, like most factory triggers they have their faults which are often exaggerated by user error. I would guess I have worked on nearly 1000 Rem 700 triggers over the years. Of those, I have had eight that I would say were seriously dangerous when they came into the shop but upon looking into the problems deeper I found out the reason. Four of those triggers would fire when the safety was moved to the off position but why. Was it a poor sear angle, NOPE, not at all, in fact all had positive sear engagement angles which means when struck or impacted, the triggers sear engagement will increase instead of slip off and allow the rifle to fire. What was the problem. Well, shooters that THOUGHT they were cleaning their rifles well and allowing solvent and more importantly oil to seap down into the trigger mechanisms. Some actually knew this was happening. Well over time, this solvent and oil turns into a sticky, hard substance and often times if the safety is on and the trigger was moved at all, it could be held in its rearward position. When the safety was turned off, BANG!!! Trigger problem, NOPE, user error. I cleaned every one of those triggers up properly and every one of them functioned perfectly well and passed impact testing and proved to be safe when used CORRECTLY. Three of these BAD Rem 700s were another case of incorrect care. In one example which was the first time I had seen this happen. The customer had a love afair with gun oil and coated everything with it, including bolt and striker assembly. Well, he took his rifle out one morning hunting. Had a good buck walk out in front of him and a faint click was all he heard...... Walked back to his truck, out the rifle in and headed home. About half way home, the rifle fired sitting next to him on the seat. Luckily he had the rifles muzzle pointed in a safe direction and all he got was a hole blown in his floorboard and some ringing ears. He brought the rifle to my shop and I could not get the rifle to repeat what had happened, with an empty chamber of course this time. It took nearly 20 minutes talking to this guy but finally he started giving me details of the hunt. Apparently it was quite cold when he was hunting, below zero in fact. The trigger had proven safe so after hearing this I pulled the bolt apart and the striker assembly was so gubbed up with oil it was a mess. I asked him how in the hell did all this oil get into the bolt, he said that is how you keep them working smooth!!! I put the rifle in my freezer and told him to come back in the morning. That morning when he arrived I pulled the rifle out of the freezer and set it by the heater. We talked for a few minutes and then CLICK!!!! I told him he made two mistakes, one, putting oil in the bolt but even more importantly, leaving the rifle loaded when he got into the truck. The last and only trigger I have seen from Remington which I would say was honestly unsafe had a very negative sear angle and when it came from the factory the trigger was set at around 8 lbs. With this pull weight, it was enough to keep the sear engaged, when I tried to adjust the trigger down to a 3 lb pull, it would easily slip off. The customer just had me replace that trigger with a quality aftermarket trigger and the problem was solved. Those are the only instances where I would say a Rem 700 came in that was unsafe but all but one was because of the actual trigger design. Now, with that said, let me state that I have had dozens of Rem 700 rifles come in that were unsafe but not because of what Remington did or how they designed their triggers. Some of these were simply because the trigger mechanism was very dirty with fine gritty sand or dirt, again improper care. Most however were from one simple reason, the triggers were messed with by someone that had no idea what they were doing. It is not hard to get the trigger pull on a Rem 700 down to very comfortable levels, its quite another thing to be able to prove the trigger set to those pull levels are safe and will function properly. There are WAY to many out there that THINK they know how to adjust a Rem 700 trigger but very few know how to test to prove its safe. There are just as many so called PART TIME gunsmiths out there that have no business working on any triggers. The Rem 700 factory trigger should in most cases never be tuned lighter then 2.5 lbs and I prefer 3.0 lbs. They are not designed for lighter pull weights but many out there want 1.5 to 2 lb trigger pulls and often even much less then this. Can you get this, yep, is it safe, seldom. That is not to say some Rem 700 triggers can not safely be tuned to this level. I have seen many over the years that would easily allow tuning down to 1 lb or even a bit less and be perfectly safe when used as a trigger of this pull weight should be used, but in the vast majority of cases, the pull weight of a Rem 700 when set much below 2.5 lbs becomes very inconsistant and that is not a good sign. A neutral or negative sear engagement will result in a slip fire if the rifle is impacted. When testing a tuned Rem 700 trigger, several things need to be looked at before letting it out the door. -Trigger assembly needs to be totally cleaned -Contacting parts need to be inspected for flacky and chipping chrome plating which can be a common problem with older triggers. If present, replace parts. -Sear engagement angle needs to be proven -Sear engagement needs to be lubed with a quality lube that will not migrate or stiffen up in cold weather. (some will argue this, so be it) -Trigger pull SHOULD increase in pull weight after you engage the safety and release it again (sign of positive sear angle) -With safety on, trigger should be pulled completely to the rear, released slowly and safety dropped smartly, better not fire and trigger pull should increase compared to not putting safety on before firing. -Trigger must withstand 10 good smacks with a non marring mallet and trigger pull should be heavier after impacts then before. Again, this tells you trigger has a positive sear angle. -Owner should be instructed to keep trigger mechanism clean -Owner is told to NEVER carry rifle loaded when moving in the field, even with safety on, NEVER carry a loaded weapon walking around in the field (number one mistake by most that get accidentally shot) IF the adjusted trigger has a lighter trigger pull after dropping the safety compared to just testing the trigger normally, sear engagement is negative. IF the trigger pull decreases after the impact test, again negative sear angle. In either case, trigger needs to be replaced. Problem is this rarely happens and many just decide to live with the trigger if they even know of the situation at all which is most common. Finally, I feel bad for these families but there are very few documented cases where the problem can not be tracked back to user error. Again, main thing, DO NOT WALK AROUND WITH A LOADED RIFLE and depend on the safety to keep you alive!!! In all honesty, I wish there had never been a safety invented because all if does is allow many to depend on them instead of paying attention and handling a firearm correctly. In nearly every situation, had the rifle been pointed in a safe direction no damage would have been done and in even more situations, if the firearm had not had a live round in the chamber after walking around all day or when grabbing the rifle out of the truck or any other situation, lives could have been saved. Remember a rifle can not kill someone if its not pointed at someone....... We have sadly forgotten how to safely handle firearms and alot of that is because we do not require everyone to take hunters safety. We believe that someone that is an adult will automatically handle a firearm safely and responsibly, BULL!!! Everyone should be required to take a course to safely handle firearms. So while I am sure there are design flaws in the Rem 700, I could take any factory trigger and find different or similiar flaws as well. Should Remington have handled things differently, certainly, but I believe most of this is media driven and of that Remington WILL have to pay dearly, possibly putting it out of business. Is that a good thing........... [/QUOTE]
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