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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Questions & thought's on 6mm for BR and prarrie poodles.
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<blockquote data-quote="goodgrouper" data-source="post: 68454" data-attributes="member: 2852"><p><strong>Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......</strong></p><p></p><p>[ QUOTE ]</p><p> But bearing surface equals friction and friction equals heat. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, I was hoping I wouldn't have to get technical on you to prove my point but I can see it is necessary now. Copper is a guilding metal. It coats your barrel from shot one. THis results in the next bullet "sliding" down a wash of copper. Benchrest shooters shoot this condition without cleaning it out completely because the "wash" actually helps in accuracy. THey shoot flat base bullets with fairly large bearing surfaces. Varmint hunters usually shoot boat tail bullets with smaller bearing surfaces. If you take a flat base bullet with a 6 caliber ogive and a boat tail bullet with a 9 caliber ogive and compute the surface area and bearing surface area and then subtract the difference in the two bullets, the actual length of metal to metal contact (which is guilding contact) is so minute that it is insignificant. Then you get into heat transfers and conductivity of heat in a copper/zinc alloy to stainless steel and it even becomes more minute in actual heat creation. You are splitting hairs of the hair!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> a 6mm bore has more surface area to dissipate heat. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>That is actually a true statement but I will admit that it too is so minute that it wouldn't be worth using in this friendly argument. You would have to use instrumentation to even get a reading because the human hand probably wouldn't be able to detect such a small difference. It would be similiar to the heat dissipation/surface area comparison of a .750" diameter barrel to a .769" diameter barrel!</p><p>Again, splitting hairs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> Of course there are VLD bullets without a whole lot of bearing surface, but look at the post. He says "90-ish" gr. bullets....not 105 or 107VLD's. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p>I used these bullets in my example because they are even bigger and slower than the 90's. But if you want to run a 90-ish bullet, fine. Try a 95 grain Vld in there. It is even flatter and passes the smaller bullet even quicker. I was just trying to stack the odds in your favor.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> No, just "dead" isn't enough. Seeing fireworks is part of the fun. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed, but you really ought to actually see what a 105 amax does to a 400 yard prairie dog before you go on a forum with many other fellows who actually have shot that bullet at critters and tell them it won't obliterate in fine fashion!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> he says out to 600yds. You can juggle numbers any way you please, but I was answering his question according to his conditions and had no ulterior motives.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>I realize he said out to 600 yards, but I know of no one who hasn't built a gun for one intended range and at some point tried to shoot a little farther with it than what was originally planned. If you have a great p-dog colony at 700 yards instead of 600, why not go for it even though it is past your original limit IF the gun can do it? A 6 br can and will do it fine.</p><p>I just see no reason to limit yourself to a caliber that is limiting! Build a gun now with future planning in mind and then you won't waste money.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> If people want to shoot stuff at longer distances, that's fine. But it's not necessary. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>Man, are you sure you know where you are?! This ain't the Accurate reloading forum. We delight in the <font color="blue">LONG SHOT! </font> And besides, I hunt rock chucks in places where if you don't have a rifle to do long range, you can just go home because the lay of the land won't permit you to shoot less than 600 or 1000 yards. If you build the right rifle with the right ballistics, you can stay and play. Why choose a caliber that limits you if you can avoid it. I love the .223, but there are places where you need to take it AND another gun for longer ranges-not by choice but by circumstance. The 6 br is just more versatile plain and simple. And it also is great for closer ranges because of qualities already mentioned.</p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> I seriously doubt called eyeball shots at 500yds, or even considerably less. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p></p><p>That was figuratively speaking. Although, I have seen guns and shooters who could do it. Several of my guns are capable of this at 300 yards, but it usually becomes head shots at longer ranges. The very first kill I had with my 6 BR dasher was a called head shot at 515 yards because that was all he was poking over the rock to shoot at. Oh, it also created red mist just fine with that 105 grain Amax.</p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> And guys who talk 1,000 or 1300yd prairie dog kills don't mention how many rounds it took to make that hit. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p>Well, I am one of those guys. I am a member of the VHA 500, 1000, and 1500 yard clubs and also a kill at over 1 mile. I have re-qualified for the 1000 yard club at least 3 dozen times, and I can honestly tell you that there are days when it takes several, several shots to hit anything at 1k, but then there are days when I have hit stuff at that range before the "copper wash" had developed in my barrel!</p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> Or how many of those hits were a leg or part of a butt, and the thing dragged itself into it's hole. No matter how accurate the gun, over that distance it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p>Oh this is a bad one to bring up. Now you are debating ethics of 600 yard p-dog shooting versus 1000 yard p-dog shooting. Can you honestly tell me that you have never just blown the leg off a p-dog at 300 yards only to have it crawl down it's hole? If you are saying yes, then Accurate Reloading may just be the place for you!</p><p></p><p></p><p> [ QUOTE ]</p><p> it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss. </p><p></p><p>[/ QUOTE ] </p><p></p><p>You said it! That is why I shoot the highest bc bullet I can i.e. -not the light bullets but the <font color="red"> HEAVY ONES!</font></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="goodgrouper, post: 68454, member: 2852"] [b]Re: 6mm and prairie dogs......[/b] [ QUOTE ] But bearing surface equals friction and friction equals heat. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I was hoping I wouldn't have to get technical on you to prove my point but I can see it is necessary now. Copper is a guilding metal. It coats your barrel from shot one. THis results in the next bullet "sliding" down a wash of copper. Benchrest shooters shoot this condition without cleaning it out completely because the "wash" actually helps in accuracy. THey shoot flat base bullets with fairly large bearing surfaces. Varmint hunters usually shoot boat tail bullets with smaller bearing surfaces. If you take a flat base bullet with a 6 caliber ogive and a boat tail bullet with a 9 caliber ogive and compute the surface area and bearing surface area and then subtract the difference in the two bullets, the actual length of metal to metal contact (which is guilding contact) is so minute that it is insignificant. Then you get into heat transfers and conductivity of heat in a copper/zinc alloy to stainless steel and it even becomes more minute in actual heat creation. You are splitting hairs of the hair! [ QUOTE ] a 6mm bore has more surface area to dissipate heat. [/ QUOTE ] That is actually a true statement but I will admit that it too is so minute that it wouldn't be worth using in this friendly argument. You would have to use instrumentation to even get a reading because the human hand probably wouldn't be able to detect such a small difference. It would be similiar to the heat dissipation/surface area comparison of a .750" diameter barrel to a .769" diameter barrel! Again, splitting hairs. [ QUOTE ] Of course there are VLD bullets without a whole lot of bearing surface, but look at the post. He says "90-ish" gr. bullets....not 105 or 107VLD's. [/ QUOTE ] I used these bullets in my example because they are even bigger and slower than the 90's. But if you want to run a 90-ish bullet, fine. Try a 95 grain Vld in there. It is even flatter and passes the smaller bullet even quicker. I was just trying to stack the odds in your favor. [ QUOTE ] No, just "dead" isn't enough. Seeing fireworks is part of the fun. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed, but you really ought to actually see what a 105 amax does to a 400 yard prairie dog before you go on a forum with many other fellows who actually have shot that bullet at critters and tell them it won't obliterate in fine fashion! [ QUOTE ] he says out to 600yds. You can juggle numbers any way you please, but I was answering his question according to his conditions and had no ulterior motives. [/ QUOTE ] I realize he said out to 600 yards, but I know of no one who hasn't built a gun for one intended range and at some point tried to shoot a little farther with it than what was originally planned. If you have a great p-dog colony at 700 yards instead of 600, why not go for it even though it is past your original limit IF the gun can do it? A 6 br can and will do it fine. I just see no reason to limit yourself to a caliber that is limiting! Build a gun now with future planning in mind and then you won't waste money. [ QUOTE ] If people want to shoot stuff at longer distances, that's fine. But it's not necessary. [/ QUOTE ] Man, are you sure you know where you are?! This ain't the Accurate reloading forum. We delight in the <font color="blue">LONG SHOT! </font> And besides, I hunt rock chucks in places where if you don't have a rifle to do long range, you can just go home because the lay of the land won't permit you to shoot less than 600 or 1000 yards. If you build the right rifle with the right ballistics, you can stay and play. Why choose a caliber that limits you if you can avoid it. I love the .223, but there are places where you need to take it AND another gun for longer ranges-not by choice but by circumstance. The 6 br is just more versatile plain and simple. And it also is great for closer ranges because of qualities already mentioned. [ QUOTE ] I seriously doubt called eyeball shots at 500yds, or even considerably less. [/ QUOTE ] That was figuratively speaking. Although, I have seen guns and shooters who could do it. Several of my guns are capable of this at 300 yards, but it usually becomes head shots at longer ranges. The very first kill I had with my 6 BR dasher was a called head shot at 515 yards because that was all he was poking over the rock to shoot at. Oh, it also created red mist just fine with that 105 grain Amax. [ QUOTE ] And guys who talk 1,000 or 1300yd prairie dog kills don't mention how many rounds it took to make that hit. [/ QUOTE ] Well, I am one of those guys. I am a member of the VHA 500, 1000, and 1500 yard clubs and also a kill at over 1 mile. I have re-qualified for the 1000 yard club at least 3 dozen times, and I can honestly tell you that there are days when it takes several, several shots to hit anything at 1k, but then there are days when I have hit stuff at that range before the "copper wash" had developed in my barrel! [ QUOTE ] Or how many of those hits were a leg or part of a butt, and the thing dragged itself into it's hole. No matter how accurate the gun, over that distance it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss. [/ QUOTE ] Oh this is a bad one to bring up. Now you are debating ethics of 600 yard p-dog shooting versus 1000 yard p-dog shooting. Can you honestly tell me that you have never just blown the leg off a p-dog at 300 yards only to have it crawl down it's hole? If you are saying yes, then Accurate Reloading may just be the place for you! [ QUOTE ] it doesn't take much wind to blow a bullet off enough to turn the shot into a wound or a miss. [/ QUOTE ] You said it! That is why I shoot the highest bc bullet I can i.e. -not the light bullets but the <font color="red"> HEAVY ONES!</font> [/QUOTE]
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