Pack Goats

[jmden]

Not worried much about daylight hours and any bad animal. Actually feel that louring a woof into a threatening distance would be quite pleasurable.

Biggest concern is at night when I tend to sleep very sound. Don't know if very loud snoring is an attractant or a deterrent.

Also, just bought a trailer big enough to carry a couple of Gs plus all the other stuff. Next step is to improve fencing. Gonna be a very busy summer in 2012

I hope you update us regularly, Roy. This has my interest peaked and I'll be curious to see how things go for you in this regard.

You get that big 375AM barking yet this fall?

 

[packgoatguy]

Well, I have spent quite a few nights in the woods with my goats, nearly a months worth this year alone, and havent had an issue with a predator yet. I actually tend to sleep a little more soundly with them nearby, as I know their sence of smell and hearing is working even when Im asleep. Although, as best as the terrain will allow, I generally do pick camping spots that are wide an open vs deep in thick timber so as to remove possible stealthy approach routes for a night predator.

Trailer wise, the best transport option I have had yet is simply an inexpensive stock rack in the back of my halfton 6ft pickup bed. I can get six goats into my six ft bed with the stock rack on it. My next favorite is a old truck bed trailer I picked up for a $100. Its got an 8ft bed, and a shell on top. I put a wood divider up the middle incase I want to take some horned and some non horned goats at the same time. I routinely haul 6 goats inside it, and its so light that my friends v6 pickup tows it with ease.

 

[royinidaho]

jmden & packgoatguy,

The 375 won't get goin' till March of 2012. Ain't that the pits.......

Had the kid buy a bigger trailer. The first one was one of those 4X8 small things with the itty bitty wheels. Folded up nicely for storage but is too small and rough riding. I haven't seen this one yet. I think its 5 by 9 feet. Its about the largest thing I can pull with my Habitat Invasion Vehicle (HIV) Carrier. (A aged beater but reliable mountain machine Suzuki Sidekick)

The stuff I tote packs in at around 75 pounds on a heavy day plus the rifle. I figure a couple of goats can pack all of stuff and I'll carry the rifle.

I plan on packing in and setting up camp for a couple of days early in the season then caching most stuff and leave it there until the season's end or I shoot something.

For the most part the only worrisome predator would be a mountain lion and/or a black bear.

Been thinking of upgrading my Springfield XD 9mm to a 45 just in case..... But with 16 shots I otta be able to put the hurt on something.....

 

[packgoatguy]

RoyinIdaho, your normal hunting pack weight is 75lbs? I can see why you could use some goats, that would break my back hauling that around a long day of hunting. Ive gotten into a bit of an 'ultralight' kick this year so that I could take a few less goats when I solo hunted. Although I never weighed it before, Im sure my previous gear weights before and after the goats were in the 50 to 75 pound range like you have experienced. But, this year, I got my total gear weight, including food, water, pack, etc (everything except the boots on my feet, the shirt and pants on my person, and the bow or rifle in my hands) down to 28 pounds for a 4 day 3 night solo hunt. That way, I could take 3 goats and they could haul out a mature bull elk for me if necessary. (boned out, a bull elk weighs in around 160-200lbs in my experience, so each goat would have 50-65 lbs each for the trip out, and I would have my 28lbs of gear plus the antlers on my back.) At first, I thought I would have to sacrifice a lot to get my gear weight down that much, but that weight still includes; pistol, range finder, binos, calls, bugle, rope, warm clothes, rain gear, water filter, 0 degree sleeping bag, thermarest, 1 man tent, first aid kit, boning knives and game bags, and even a small fishing kit (as there are some great lakes to fish where I hunt, and makes for a nice afternoon diversion after a long morning of hunting) It only includes about a liter of water, as I mentioned I also carry a water filter and am always within a half mile of some spring, lake, or creek where I hunt. Ive got about a pound of food for each day, over 2000 calories per day. It took me all summer and a lot of trial and error to come up with my current gear list, but it was worth it.

 

[Scot E]

RoyinIdaho, your normal hunting pack weight is 75lbs? I can see why you could use some goats, that would break my back hauling that around a long day of hunting. Ive gotten into a bit of an 'ultralight' kick this year so that I could take a few less goats when I solo hunted. Although I never weighed it before, Im sure my previous gear weights before and after the goats were in the 50 to 75 pound range like you have experienced. But, this year, I got my total gear weight, including food, water, pack, etc (everything except the boots on my feet, the shirt and pants on my person, and the bow or rifle in my hands) down to 28 pounds for a 4 day 3 night solo hunt. That way, I could take 3 goats and they could haul out a mature bull elk for me if necessary. (boned out, a bull elk weighs in around 160-200lbs in my experience, so each goat would have 50-65 lbs each for the trip out, and I would have my 28lbs of gear plus the antlers on my back.) At first, I thought I would have to sacrifice a lot to get my gear weight down that much, but that weight still includes; pistol, range finder, binos, calls, bugle, rope, warm clothes, rain gear, water filter, 0 degree sleeping bag, thermarest, 1 man tent, first aid kit, boning knives and game bags, and even a small fishing kit (as there are some great lakes to fish where I hunt, and makes for a nice afternoon diversion after a long morning of hunting) It only includes about a liter of water, as I mentioned I also carry a water filter and am always within a half mile of some spring, lake, or creek where I hunt. Ive got about a pound of food for each day, over 2000 calories per day. It took me all summer and a lot of trial and error to come up with my current gear list, but it was worth it.

Wow, that is impressive. I did a 3 day hunt this fall and had right at 50lbs. That was with 2 liters of water but still you are almost 50% lighter than I am. I need work! I know I had more than a lb of food a day. I did realize this year that I don't eat much when I am working really hard so I likely could have packed about half as much food as I did.

I have a late season archery hunt that would be perfect for goats. Wish I had my herd up and running! Maybe next year.

 

[Jake Levi]

Excellent thread,

I use pack goats too, so far to make back packing better, next year I do intend to take mine hunting with me, I am in NE Wa.

There is a good list group on yahoogroups, called Packgoats, but there is a much more informative forum at The Pack Goat Forum, google it, a lot of excellent info there and a great many photos. We are having a four day seminar in July not far from Ranier, be about 70 people there, most with goats.

The forum members are literally from all across the country but many of the members are in Wa, Id, Mt, Or, Ut and Co. And many of us hunt.

I have heard of brush goats being a vector for diseases but never knew of any actual pack goats carrying anything. Most of us with our goats make sure they are up on all shots and give them good care year round.

Most common breeds are the dairy breeds, especially Saanens and Alpines and their crosses, but all dairy breeds are used. Over the last 7-8 years a few folks have found that about a 1/4 of meat goat, Kiko or Boer puts more muscle on the frame and we get ultimately bigger wethers that can carry more and do it easier. I have one Boer cross but am breeding my does to a Kiko in the spring as they have bigger frames then the Boer and are longer legged.

Come over to the forum and take a look if you are wanting more information, there is a LOT there in old threads and folks are always glad to handle questions.

Enjoy,

Jake

 

[packgoatguy]

Ive had a few guys ask about what it takes to transport goats easily, so I figured I would give my quick two cents. Honestly, the ease of transport is one of the things I enjoy most about using goats vs other pack animals. My favorite is a simple stock rack that sits in the back of my half ton short bed truck. I routinely haul 6 full size horned goats in that space, and have never had any problem. Cost of my stock rack was only a couple hundred bucks used. My second favorite is a 'truckbed' trailer made from an old ford longbed pickup with a shell on it. With a divider down the middle, I can easily get 6 goats inside, and they travel out of the weather as well. My truck only seats 6, so if my group is larger than six, I take the F350 van (ie on scout outings) which I will pull the truckbed trailer behind it. My third favorite option is my 20 ft double axle enclosed trailer, it is large enough that I can take two or even three strings of goats and gear (12-18 goats) with no problem. I have even transported a string of goats and a couple llamas at the same time in it. I have tie down rings on the floor every couple feet, so I can tie the leads to the floor during transport. The truckbed trailer is lighter and easier on gas, but it is easier to put one goat at a time into the bigger trailer, tie them to their own tiedown spot, and then go get the next goat. Sometimes its a bit of a hassle with the smaller trailer to have to load one, turn around to load the next, only to have the first decide he wants to jump back out. With the shell on the truckbed trailer, its too small to climb in with the goats to tie them off. The truck bed trailer usually works best with a partner to help. My favorite option, the stock rack in my truck (which could also be put into a truckbed trailer without a shell) works well because I can load one goat at a time, tie them off to the stock rack, then get out and load the next. I have no problem loading or unloading six goats all by myself in a minute or two. Plus, a stock rack or a truck bed trailer is a far cheaper upfront investment than is a 20ft enclosed sled trailer. The only issue I have with hauling the goats in the back of my truck is that there isnt anywhere to put all my gear and stuff. For that though, I have a hitch mounted rack that I can stack rubbermade type tubs on. My hitch will easily support several hundred pounds, so I can put pretty much all the gear there that I need. A simple stockrack option can be devised by using the welded fence panels that can be purchased at any farm and ranch store, then cut a length for each of the two sides of the truck, one for the back and one for the front, then wire the corners together. Certainly this configuration wouldnt be strong enough to haul cattle, but for goats it would be perfect, cheap, and easy to remove when not in use.

 

[Jake Levi]

You are really set up !

I bought a 12'L by 6' W flatbed twin axle and built a stock rack on it, 5' H inside, Ply roof and sides and front end. With 2 by 4 uprights and roof cross pieces. There is a divider for the front 4' and an 8' rear section. Just in case I want to haul different ages /sexes or whatever, 5 adults fit in the back nicely. And pack saddles etc can go in the front section along with any other gear I want to take with me. I pull it with a Chevy van. I usually bed it well with straw and carry them loose but I can tie if there are others, my guys get on well with one another, there is a hay rack on the left rear wall that I keep full for them.Its all stained outside a heavy dark walnut stain, 4 coats and the last is an oil and sealer mix, gives it a semi gloss . The roof has aluminized sealer, and the seams caulked. I made it to last. All of my pack gear is in the trailer, along with their packed paniers. My goats wear collars only, and I have a couple lead ropes over my shoulder in case I need one for whatever reason.

I have done a LOT of backpacking but my goats make it a lot more fun then ever before and I am looking forward next year to our first hunting trip. They all know what gun fire is now, one doesnt even look up anymore. I am expecting to add another young one in the spring to start training. As far as he is concerned he is just going out with his herd.

Works for me.

 

[packgoatguy]

Yea, I find that my goats are pretty unshakeable, even the new ones dont mind gunfire that much. Sure, they might run off 50 yards or so the first time they hear a rifle crack, but then they just come back. Even around predators, they dont go crazy... My friend took a black bear this past weekend, and the goats were content to mingle not 5 feet from where we were skinning out the bear. One even came up to give it a sniff. Later, I let 3 of the goats have their turn hauling out the panniers with the bear skin and meat inside. Neither the goats carrying the meat or the other goats in the string had any problem with it (and if you know bears, you know they stink to high heavin). Interestingly enough, the day after he shot the bear (he had a tag by the way) we found its tracks not 20 yards from our camp, and probably only a few hours before he had shot it.

 

[Jake Levi]

This is pretty much what I have experienced and what others on the PackGoat.com forum have experienced. Once they are secure with us as herd ldrs they are very relaxed and cue on us for their reactions. They take a surprising amount of things in stride.

Packing out meat is old hat to them the first time,its the weight that matters to them, not what it is.

BTW, prices mentioned earlier for goats, good trained ones are often for sale, its the nature of life nowadays, you can spend $500 on one but they come up for less, a guy in Selah, Wa has 2 for sale, 5 yr olds, trained packers, he has a new job, will take $500 for the pair, with saddles and Pannier. He has an ad on the packgoatforum,com flea market section, name is Rod Mutch. There are regular for sale and wanted ads there, plus on the site are links to equipment sellers and breeders.

Its one of those sites like this one, a LOT of information. Good folks too.

 

[packgoatguy]

I brought up the bear meat and skin example because there has been some question here on the forum in the past as to how the goats would react to being that close to the odor of a known predator. For my goats this was not their first 'rodeo' in packing meat, and do it multiple times a year, but I wanted to show the contrast between the goats capabilities and some other types of pack animals that may have had more of an issue with hauling out a stinky bear.

BTW, the packgoatforum, yahoo group, John Myozinski's book, and a number of other resources have been cited earlier in this thread for anyone that is interested, but im sure anyone interested in getting more information welcomes the reminder. But this forum is more dedicated to the useage of packgoats for the purpose of hunting, and while there are only a few threads on the Packgoatforum from time to time referencing hunting with goats, I also find that this particular thread has more detail and description of hunting ideas and tactics with goats than any of the ones on the packgoatforum. There arent many threads on the packgoatforum about hunting, and most of them are pretty short. The packgoatforum does a great job talking about goat health issues, techniques of how to use certain types of gear, etc, but most are in reference to average backpacking type trips not for hunting. In fact, I think that there is a fairly small minority of folks (within the entire packgoat community) that heavily use their pack goats for hunting, especially how I do it with the goats in tow the whole way (instead of leaving them in camp all the time) But since this thread started, I have encountered more and more interest in using goats for hunting, which is a great use for the goats in my opinion.

 

[royinidaho]

I'm thinkin' of intruding on packgoatguy's life to gain some experience with the critters then determine which way I'm gonna go.

Next summer is gonna be a busy one. I want to be ready for next season. I've missed the last two and don't have that many more in front if me. Gotta get a lot of miles out of this last quarter tank of gas....

I have no 'real' feel for how much a goat can carry thus do I need a couple of 200 pounders or a couple of smaller ones. My comparison of horse, burro, pony, lama and goat says the convenience of the goat by far outweighs any features of the others.

Plus I have to learn to think conservative regarding weight and size. I'm not about to buy an F-350 to just haul an animal around.

Hikes to my ambush spots may be long at times but definitely not hard walks. And my longest stay away from a base camp, or home, would be maybe 4 days including to and from.

 

[packgoatguy]

Ill be honest, when I first got into pack goats, I read all the hype and was taken by the idea that 'bigger was better' when it came to the goats; ie a 250 pound goat is better than a 200 pound goat, and a 200 pound goat is better than a 150 pound goat. But, after gaining some personal experience, I have found that is not nessecerily true. The rule of thumb for pack weights on goats is up to a third of their body weight, but most packers insist on not packing more than 50-60 pounds regardless. Do the math, that means that 150 pound goat will do the same job as a heavier goat in theory. Thats not to say that in a pinch a larger goat couldnt haul more than a smaller goat, but on average they will do a fairly similar job. Plus, some of the typically smaller breeds like lamanchas and oberhasilis have proven to be some of my favorites to work with. Im not the biggest guy on the block either, so at only 5 ft 8, I appreciate a smaller goat to work with, but thats just my opinion of course. One of my lamanchas is about a 150-160 pound goat, and he will outpack any of my 200 plus pounders. So when it comes to finding the right pack goats, bigger isnt always better. What makes a goat capable of packing the heavier loads isnt just a factor of his size, its a matter of how much conditioning he has. I know guys my size that could out benchpress guys twice their weight. Its not a whole lot different for us humans you see, if we hit the gym in the off season, our stamina and strength during the hunting season can increase immensely, vs if we sit around and eat potato chips, we may increase our total weight, but not increase our ability to hike and hunt. Same thing goes for goats.

 

[Jake Levi]

Size and conformation are extremely important but one other ingrediant trumps all others and that is work ethic and endurance, many of the mid size goats are hard core energizer bunny goats, I even knew a Nigerian Dwarf that would pack, not much but he'd go all day. Like all atheletes condition is what separates all goats. That said, two goats in excellent condition, one at 150 lbs and one 200 lbs the larger is going to handle more weight longer.

Re the Packgoatforum.com there is an active hunting thread going on right now with some excellent pictures.