Leica 2000b

KiwiFallow

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2015
Messages
6
Recently brought one of these neat little units. One of my main reasons for buying it was for it equivalent horizontal range feature. I did not realise before buying it you had to choose one of their ballistic charts which don't suit my ballistics, to use the EHR function. And therefore when giving me the EHR it also takes into account my atmospheric conditions compared to the ballistic programmes standard atmospheric conditions and adjusts the range accordingly. So when shooting the other day my shooting angle was 0 degrees so flat and it was 500 yards and the rangefinder EHR was 485 yards. So not really what I'm after, I just want the true horizontal range not a atmospheric condition modified one. If I turn off the ballistic program I can't use the EHR feature. Hope that all makes sense.
So my question is
Is there some way around this so it will just give me the true horizontal range?
 
Am I right in thinking that if my ballistic curve matches one of theirs it would also have to be lined in at the same atmospheric conditions as what they used in their programme, for it to work well.
 
What you are asking then is can you run your 2000b as a range finder with an incinmeter. From what I have read you should be able too. The first reading you get should be your true horizontal range. How did you know your range the other day was 500yds.
 
If your first reading was the true horizontal range how, which I don't believe it is. How do you get the line of site range.
 
What were your 3 other range finders by brand. I was at Cabelas not to long ago and most of the range finders gave a reading the front of the store as 50yds. the Leica range was 49 which it was if your other range finders were out that much that is 10 yds. Maybe your Leica is giving the true reading.
If you are on level ground that is your line of sight. owever if you are shooting on an incline you do not want line of sight as it will be farther then what you really are. That would cause you to aim higher then you should and maybe miss or wound your target. I am not sure if this helps you any but your Leica's may be ok.
 
If your first reading was the true horizontal range how, which I don't believe it is. How do you get the line of site range.
The first reading is the line of sight, 2nd is EHR with angle/temp/pressure, and the picked curve. Most of the time the EHR is shorter than it should be. At least it was for me and what others have said.
 
Kiwi,

I have had both the 1600b and now a 2700b and am working on a review of it along with the Kestrel Elite, so have 'dug in' on how these particular finders work and what does not. Not sure I can adequately communicate that in a regular post, so if you want to PM me, we can connect by phone if that helps. I also have a great contact at Leica that I am sure would be happy to help. But if you want a short answer on whether or not you can have the 2000b display line of site range and range only adjusted for angle...no. For that, you need the r series of RF's...in this case the 1600R would be the longest range R series available at this time. If that's all you wanted to know, skip the book below!

But you have some options, to make a good choice, here is how they work. It sounds like most of this you probably already know but just in case and for those that are considering Leicas....

EHR outputs are comparative. That is, the EHR output they give you only works if you take and reference a dope sheet that is configured for 59 degrees f, 29.92 inches absolute pressure (sea level), regardless of your local actual conditions. These are their 'standard conditions'. The idea is that the RF is designed to best be used with a custom turret cut for your velocity and bc under those atmospheric conditions and you are good to go no matter where you are or where you go, because the RF translates your shoot to distance for the changed atmospherics and angle back to the standard conditions dope (or range). To make that calculation, it takes a temp reading, a pressure reading, angle reading, and uses the curve preset that you have chosen, then tells you what distance to dial to on your turret that was cut for the standard condition atmospherics and a 0 degree cant. If you don't have a custom turret cut for the standard conditions, then you need to use a dope sheet for those standard conditions, not the conditions you are currently in.

So for example, when I went from my home near sea level to Colorado at 8000 feet, my dope sheet was still printed out for the standard conditions at sea level. The RF is supposed to do all the calculations and take into account all the conditions and then spit out the Equivalent Horizontal Range (ie Equivalent to a flat shot at sea level) for me to 'dial to'. In your case, even though you were shooting at 0 degrees of cant, you probably were not at their standard conditions (higher elevation perhaps), so the RF was probably giving you an adjusted shoot to for you to reference on a dope sheet (or turret) configured for the standard conditions. If you were using a dope sheet for higher elevation etc...your elevation changes will likely be too short.

So okay, sounds all good and pretty awesome right? No more worrying about having multiple custom turrets cut for various atmospheric conditions, or 10 different dope sheets etc. In theory, that's how it should work out to 875 yards, when it stops giving EHR to you and you have to do everything manually (it will still tell you raw distance, pressure, temp and angle any time for you to enter into a solver of course). And if you are fairly close to one of their curves, it works pretty well.

The problem comes when your ballistics don't match the preset choices closely enough, or maybe you are sited in for MPBR, rather than the choices they give you (100,200,300 yards or the same in meters). It's also hard to tell how well your curve matches way out there because the charts they give you only go to 500 yards. If you use the online tool, it will match the closest curve for you, and you can tell how far off you are to 950 IIRC.

In my case, my ballistics fell almost exactly between two curves, so the 'error' was maximum. In addition, it appears that the temp and maybe other sensors were not working correctly. The way it manifested for me was I was good out to about 600 yards, but as I stretched it, it diverged with the corresponding drops from a Sig kilo (with dope sheet printed for the actual conditions) more and more, until when I got to 875 raw distance, the Leica EHR/dope combo corresponded to 1 MOA less elevation correction than what the Sig/dope combo was telling me. The Sig was right, my 1600b was wrong.

So I had to come up with some solutions options and ultimately got a 2700b. But there are other ways to go, and that's what I plan to work through for the article. I don't know how far you shoot or want to shoot, but I am finally getting to the point where Coriolis, Aero Jump, spin drift etc. start to matter to the point that I want to have these considered in my solution, and the Leica's don't do this internally. Of course the Sig 2400 does, I think the latest G7 might, but not sure, and then there is the pairing of solvers and of course, the Kestrel with AB (which I now have as well). These solutions all have their pluses and minuses, but obviously, there are multiple ways to achieve this, depending on what you already have, what you want to do with your stuff, and how far you want to shoot.

I don't know how far you are wanting to shoot, but if I were you, and I was recently, I would do (I did) the following. Go back out to the range with your 2000b with the appropriate dope (critical to have it 59 degrees, 29.92 absolute pressure). Go also with your buddy's RF (use the one you trust the most) and a dope sheet set for the conditions where you will be shooting.

Before you start, make sure that the angle shown by both RF's is 0 to ensure there is no problem there. Then get an EHR and see what the corresponding drop is on the 'Leica standard conditions' dope sheet. Then get a range with the other RF and see what the drop is on the second dope that you will have printed set up for the actual conditions where you are that day. Though the EHR will not be the same as the range from the other RF, the drops from the two different dopes should be about the same. (If you are using a G7, make sure it is not including coriolis or Aero jump if you are ranging far enough and in the direction where that would affect the return. I don't know if his G7 includes this or not, but you'll need to find that out).

Where this might go sideways on you depends on if your curve matches well enough to the preset or not, and how far you are shooting. I don't think you will see much to worry about to 5 or 600 yards at least, but past that...depending on how much you diverge from the preset...errors start to grow. Leica tells me they expect that no matter how far you diverge from the closest curve, you should be within 3 inches IIRC at 875...so thirdish MOA high or low. Mine was off much more, and there appeared to be a problem with the atmospherics on mine that caused the error to increase.

Hopefully, with the correct dope, you will find you are on well enough. Again, that's gonna depend on how close you are to one of those curves. But if you are not, there are options. The 2700b takes a chip where you can load your exact curve in...so you are on the money....and outputs in MOA if you want (as well as all the other options). So far, I have tested it's atmospherics, and they align almost perfectly with what my Kestrel outputs. And the curve I built on Leica's site (you have to use their site for curves) is within .05 MOA of what my Kestrel calls for all the way out to 950 (as far as the chart reads, and that comparison is made with aero jump and coriolis removed from the Kestrel's return). I should note that I tweaked the BC a bit to make it work, but it was always within .1 MOA anyway. I just wanted to see if I could get it closer. Frankly, with more time, I think I could get closer still, but as the tool only uses G1 bc's and I am running custom drag numbers for my bullet in the Kestrel, there was bound to be a little divergence. Frankly, I am surprised they are as close as they are.

The Sig 2400 includes the same AB as the Kestrel, so it should be solid, and in the time I have used it, it definitely is a strong piece of equipment...but it has some downsides as well...and is pricey.

If you just want a range output that ONLY takes into account angle and does nothing else at all...many good choices... 1600r, Sig Kilo 2200, and apparently Nikon's new 3k stabilized RF is pretty trick and not very expensive, though I have yet to get a chance to try one. My understanding is that both the image and laser are stabilized, making long distance rangefinding much easier, though I think they may have oopsed it on the beam shape configuration, unfortunately.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, there is more to consider between the choices depending on your use and needs, but this is too long as it is. As I said, if I can help, you are welcome to PM me and I can try and help further and also try and connect you with a good source at Leica if necessary.

HTH
 
Last edited:
Kiwi,

I have had both the 1600b and now a 2700b and am working on a review of it along with the Kestrel Elite, so have 'dug in' on how these particular finders work and what does not. Not sure I can adequately communicate that in a regular post, so if you want to PM me, we can connect by phone if that helps. I also have a great contact at Leica that I am sure would be happy to help. But if you want a short answer on whether or not you can have the 2000b display line of site range and range only adjusted for angle...no. For that, you need the r series of RF's...in this case the 1600R would be the longest range R series available at this time. If that's all you wanted to know, skip the book below!

But you have some options, to make a good choice, here is how they work. It sounds like most of this you probably already know but just in case and for those that are considering Leicas....

EHR outputs are comparative. That is, the EHR output they give you only works if you take and reference a dope sheet that is configured for 59 degrees f, 29.92 inches absolute pressure (sea level), regardless of your local actual conditions. These are their 'standard conditions'. The idea is that the RF is designed to best be used with a custom turret cut for your velocity and bc under those atmospheric conditions and you are good to go no matter where you are or where you go, because the RF translates your shoot to distance for the changed atmospherics and angle back to the standard conditions dope (or range). To make that calculation, it takes a temp reading, a pressure reading, angle reading, and uses the curve preset that you have chosen, then tells you what distance to dial to on your turret that was cut for the standard condition atmospherics and a 0 degree cant. If you don't have a custom turret cut for the standard conditions, then you need to use a dope sheet for those standard conditions, not the conditions you are currently in.

So for example, when I went from my home near sea level to Colorado at 8000 feet, my dope sheet was still printed out for the standard conditions at sea level. The RF is supposed to do all the calculations and take into account all the conditions and then spit out the Equivalent Horizontal Range (ie Equivalent to a flat shot at sea level) for me to 'dial to'. In your case, even though you were shooting at 0 degrees of cant, you probably were not at their standard conditions (higher elevation perhaps), so the RF was probably giving you an adjusted shoot to for you to reference on a dope sheet (or turret) configured for the standard conditions. If you were using a dope sheet for higher elevation etc...your elevation changes will likely be too short.

So okay, sounds all good and pretty awesome right? No more worrying about having multiple custom turrets cut for various atmospheric conditions, or 10 different dope sheets etc. In theory, that's how it should work out to 875 yards, when it stops giving EHR to you and you have to do everything manually (it will still tell you raw distance, pressure, temp and angle any time for you to enter into a solver of course). And if you are fairly close to one of their curves, it works pretty well.

The problem comes when your ballistics don't match the preset choices closely enough, or maybe you are sited in for MPBR, rather than the choices they give you (100,200,300 yards or the same in meters). It's also hard to tell how well your curve matches way out there because the charts they give you only go to 500 yards. If you use the online tool, it will match the closest curve for you, and you can tell how far off you are to 950 IIRC.

In my case, my ballistics fell almost exactly between two curves, so the 'error' was maximum. In addition, it appears that the temp and maybe other sensors were not working correctly. The way it manifested for me was I was good out to about 600 yards, but as I stretched it, it diverged with the corresponding drops from a Sig kilo (with dope sheet printed for the actual conditions) more and more, until when I got to 875 raw distance, the Leica EHR/dope combo corresponded to 1 MOA less elevation correction than what the Sig/dope combo was telling me. The Sig was right, my 1600b was wrong.

So I had to come up with some solutions options and ultimately got a 2700b. But there are other ways to go, and that's what I plan to work through for the article. I don't know how far you shoot or want to shoot, but I am finally getting to the point where Coriolis, Aero Jump, spin drift etc. start to matter to the point that I want to have these considered in my solution, and the Leica's don't do this internally. Of course the Sig 2400 does, I think the latest G7 might, but not sure, and then there is the pairing of solvers and of course, the Kestrel with AB (which I now have as well). These solutions all have their pluses and minuses, but obviously, there are multiple ways to achieve this, depending on what you already have, what you want to do with your stuff, and how far you want to shoot.

I don't know how far you are wanting to shoot, but if I were you, and I was recently, I would do (I did) the following. Go back out to the range with your 2000b with the appropriate dope (critical to have it 59 degrees, 29.92 absolute pressure). Go also with your buddy's RF (use the one you trust the most) and a dope sheet set for the conditions where you will be shooting.

Before you start, make sure that the angle shown by both RF's is 0 to ensure there is no problem there. Then get an EHR and see what the corresponding drop is on the 'Leica standard conditions' dope sheet. Then get a range with the other RF and see what the drop is on the second dope that you will have printed set up for the actual conditions where you are that day. Though the EHR will not be the same as the range from the other RF, the drops from the two different dopes should be about the same. (If you are using a G7, make sure it is not including coriolis or Aero jump if you are ranging far enough and in the direction where that would affect the return. I don't know if his G7 includes this or not, but you'll need to find that out).

Where this might go sideways on you depends on if your curve matches well enough to the preset or not, and how far you are shooting. I don't think you will see much to worry about to 5 or 600 yards at least, but past that...depending on how much you diverge from the preset...errors start to grow. Leica tells me they expect that no matter how far you diverge from the closest curve, you should be within 3 inches IIRC at 875...so thirdish MOA high or low. Mine was off much more, and there appeared to be a problem with the atmospherics on mine that caused the error to increase.

Hopefully, with the correct dope, you will find you are on well enough. Again, that's gonna depend on how close you are to one of those curves. But if you are not, there are options. The 2700b takes a chip where you can load your exact curve in...so you are on the money....and outputs in MOA if you want (as well as all the other options). So far, I have tested it's atmospherics, and they align almost perfectly with what my Kestrel outputs. And the curve I built on Leica's site (you have to use their site for curves) is within .05 MOA of what my Kestrel calls for all the way out to 950 (as far as the chart reads, and that comparison is made with aero jump and coriolis removed from the Kestrel's return). I should note that I tweaked the BC a bit to make it work, but it was always within .1 MOA anyway. I just wanted to see if I could get it closer. Frankly, with more time, I think I could get closer still, but as the tool only uses G1 bc's and I am running custom drag numbers for my bullet in the Kestrel, there was bound to be a little divergence. Frankly, I am surprised they are as close as they are.

The Sig 2400 includes the same AB as the Kestrel, so it should be solid, and in the time I have used it, it definitely is a strong piece of equipment...but it has some downsides as well...and is pricey.

If you just want a range output that ONLY takes into account angle and does nothing else at all...many good choices... 1600r, Sig Kilo 2200, and apparently Nikon's new 3k stabilized RF is pretty trick and not very expensive, though I have yet to get a chance to try one. My understanding is that both the image and laser are stabilized, making long distance rangefinding much easier, though I think they may have oopsed it on the beam shape configuration, unfortunately.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, there is more to consider between the choices depending on your use and needs, but this is too long as it is. As I said, if I can help, you are welcome to PM me and I can try and help further and also try and connect you with a good source at Leica if necessary.

HTH
Well I know it has been 3 years since anyone looked at this, but I was hoping to resurrect this discussion to get a question answered.
I recently acquired a crf 2000 b and was disappointed to find that the ERH ranging only works with the ballistic calculator turned on. What I am really wondering now is if once a ballistic curve is chosen if the ERH range is affected by your chosen sight in distance or if the ERH is reported as a "true" angle compensated range without considering any of the ballistic information. I am just intereted in getting a angle compensated range without the influence of the atmospheric inputs or sightin range etc. If not, I am moving on to a CRF 2400 r as all I want is either to get a LOS distance or a ERH distance exclusive of other inputs....

If anyone is still out there and would care to comment I would sure appreciate a bit of input.
Thanks
 
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