How far apart are "nodes"

el matador

Well-Known Member
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Jul 30, 2008
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With respect to powder charge and velocity, is there an average distance between accuracy nodes? Like 200 fps for example? I'm sure it must vary with barrel harmonics and caliber, but in general has anyone noticed a pattern? Just somethin I was pondering.
 
The number of variables associated with nodes is far too great to provide any common denominator. Muzzle velocity, barrel length, bullet characteristics, etc. all combine to make barrel harmonics difficult to predict. I usually let the load identify the node, then look to the muzzle velocity stability (SD/ES) to verify my data. If I looked to velocity stability to determine where the nodes are I'd be searching in vain.
 
I usually let the load identify the node, then look to the muzzle velocity stability (SD/ES) to verify my data. If I looked to velocity stability to determine where the nodes are I'd be searching in vain.

FearNo Wind can u explain that? It sounds like a contradiction. If you can verify a node w velocity can't you find one with velocity as well?
 
Nodes are a function of barrel time and barrel length. Despite what has been asserted here, they are, in fact, predictable.

Fellow member Engineering 101 posted a research paper on this very subject awhile back. I learned a lot from it and, along with some other shooters on this forum, have been able to prove to my own satisfaction that the concept is valid. There is a chart on page nine that gives the OBT (optimum barrel time) for a number of barrel lengths. Among its many features, QL gives barrel time data for a given load combination. I have found cross referencing that info with the OBT chart to be an accurate method of predicting where in the muzzle velocity range the accuracy nodes will fall.

Here is the paper on OBT: View attachment shock wave theory summary explanation.pdf

In the short time I have owned them, I have found an accurate chronograph (I use a Magnetospeed V1) and QuickLoad to be powerful tools when coupled with information like that in the research paper above.
 
Benchracer, thanks for the link! This is way more than I was hoping for, very informative. Looks like now I need to get Quickoad!
 
Here is the paper on OBT: View attachment 38514
Not intending to offer judgment here, but when I read the paper I was troubled where:
He says (bottom of the first page) that (making reference to a charge change of 0.3 grains or a seating depth change of 0.010" ) "The change in groups, on the other hand, was dramatic"
Then he says, "If the dispersion was due to these beam bending modes, then it should be fairly insensitive to small changes in charge and seating depth." and concludes that "sensitivity to small changes was not from changes in the bending modes."
Then he says that he agrees that the POI changes are primarily due to the bending modes, but because they are so low in frequency, they are "smooth" and do not change rapidly over load variations.
Isn't that contradictory? Perhaps it works in electronic theory but how does it stand up to mechanical resonance theory?
IMO, he missed the phase relationship between the induced and the reflected waves as it relates to barrel time.
But if it works in your shop, go for it.
 
I'm sorry... But perhaps I'm too dense to figure it all out, but my issue with the whole, nodes are predicable issue is, perhaps if you have an engineering degree, and the proper lab to test various metals, how they were forged, points of contact with different stock materials, thickness and taper of the barrel, change in rifling, powder variables, etc etc etc.... Perhaps you could lay out a predictable pattern for nodes.

Since most people don't have the luxury of time or money for such experimentation and data collection, the most reliable and easiest method to determine the nodes for "your" rifle are to work up some loads... Go to the range.... And test it there, taking notes on the results you find. Even changing brass and or primers and or powder and or seating depths and or .... (I could go on and on)... Affect the vibrations in the barrel to a point that one given change can throw accuracy and consistency of a given workup, out the window.

Take (2) guns from the same manufacture, same make, caliber, stock, and twist rate, and I'll bet you'll find that they don't like the same bullet powder combination. They might have a similar pattern with respect to distance between nodes,but they might not. Been doing this long enough to know a "mirage" when I see one.... And in my humble estimation, node prediction is exactly that.

If node prediction was easy, reduced time, and cheap... Trust me when I say that everyone here would do it, because as humans, we tend to prefer the easiest, fastest, and least expensive method to get a desired result.

Best wishes to you in your endeavor and good luck. If you figure out a golden rule for node distance, you can probably develop an app for it and retire. Here's to hoping you do.
 
OBT does not work in the real world.
There are other factors/transients with bullet travel other than just a single shock wave and pattern in it. Review 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' for more field testing in this regard.

There is currently no predicting of tune.
 
OBT does not work in the real world.
There are other factors/transients with bullet travel other than just a single shock wave and pattern in it. Review 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' for more field testing in this regard.

There is currently no predicting of tune.


I've used that method and it works. If you haven't, you have no business trying to tell someone else what real world results look like using that method. I see plenty of opinions floating around, not much data. Real world results trump opinions every time.
 
I've used that method and it works. If you haven't, you have no business trying to tell someone else what real world results look like using that method. I see plenty of opinions floating around, not much data. Real world results trump opinions every time.

So what factors do you use to extrapolate node distance and predict nodes? Since you have experience and confidence in this methodology, could you provide is with a real world example, and explain? I am curious how all the variables that play into load development are are included or excluded from your method. If you can explain it, and it can be replicated, I'll be the first to eat humble pie and post my results. If you can't explain, or won't, you have no business trying to tell someone about real world results you cannot support. At least that's my take on it.
 
Ok Benchracer, predict a tune with OBT:
223REM
24" barrel
50gr FB bullet
H322 powder
Then predict the seating depth that takes me from 3/4moa to 1/4moa(without changing MV)

Just twirl it through your software & read me the printout. Then I'll pass along the actual answer for MY gun. Let's see how well you do.
 
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