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Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Barrel twist and length?
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<blockquote data-quote="Jungleexplorer" data-source="post: 1016462" data-attributes="member: 56322"><p>Thanks for the info and personal experience on 9 twist and 75gr .223 bullets. That is very informative and useful.</p><p></p><p>Yes I know my line of conversation seems conflicting in that I am talking about head shooting and am looking for body shot ammo (JSP). The reason is that this rifle is going to be primarily a varmint rifle, that on rare occasion might be used to shoot a deer. When it comes to shooting varmints, I shoot for the body in most cases, especially if they are way out there. Thus the need for an expanding round. I am the type of person that when I find a round that suits my needs, I stick with it and never mess with anything. I am not constantly changing scope, trying out new ammo, re-sighting my gun in. I bought my Savage 110 model .234 in 1993. I tried three different brands of ammo in it until I found one it like, which turned out to be Winchester 100gr Power Points. I bought 10 boxes of that ammo (all the same run) and I still have 2 boxes of that ammo. Every time I have pulled the trigger on that gun in the last 21 years, it has dropped what every I aimed it at. I did upgrade the scope in 1996 from a Simmons 3x9x30 (came on the gun) to a Bushnell Banner 4x12x40 (mostly for low light conditions) and had to re-sight it in. But other then that, it stays in it's hard case until deer season, when I take it out and shoot it once at a 200 yard target (this shot is for psychological confidence purposes, to remove any doubt that the gun is still dead on). This is what I am doing with this new 223. I want to find a round that were serve the guns primary purpose of varmint hunting up to 300 yards, but at the same time be a reasonable good round to kill a deer out to 200 yards. </p><p></p><p>Also, I have 20 nieces and nephews who's fathers are not hunters who come to me to take them hunting, and this will be the gun I will most likely let them use as well. Since they are not trained in marksmanship like I am, I want to put something in their hands that I am sure will take the animal down, even if they do decide to take a chest shot on it. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I wholeheartedly agree with everything you had to say about poor marksmanship being the cause of wounded deer. I also agree that a properly placed chest shot does not waste very much meat, although it is very messy to clean the deer. But if you will bare with me here, I have found that the number one reason, most (not all) hunters not only choose the chest shot, but defend it vehemently, is that they lack the confidence or do not want to dedicate the time and energy to become proficient enough to consistently make a head shot. If you go back and read some of the post by other posters that are in the chest shooting arena, you will see a consistent line of thinking in this chest shot mentality. </p><p></p><p>Before I say anything else I want to make it clear that I am not attacking anyone here. I am simply making a philosophical case. I am not not trying to offend anyone or say that anyone else is wrong or unethical. I believe everyone on here is a great American, sportsman and very ethical. I am going to use some statements from some posters here to show a psychological mindset that I believe is pervasive and to may lead to some people (not anyone on here) being poor marksman's. </p><p></p><p>Take this statement by Corey, in regards to why a chest shot represent a better option for a kill shot on a deer. <em>"Its a larger area that gives me more margin of error"</em></p><p></p><p>And these statement by Garycrow;<em> "A heart/lung shot is a much more ethical shot because of the size of the kill zone, a slight miss from point of aim is still a lethal shot."</em> and <em>"Because the head is a very small target"</em></p><p></p><p>What is the number one rule of good marksmans ship that I think we can all agree with? <em>"Aim small, MISS small"</em> But if you ask a dozen chest shooters why they think the chest is the best area to shoot a deer, their answers will amount to, <em>"It's a larger kill zone with greater margin for error".</em> This is essentially the opposite mentality of "Aim small, miss small." It essentially saying, "Aim big so you can miss big". </p><p></p><p>As you so eloquently stated in regards to all the many chest shot deer you have seen wounded, <em>"Most of them are the result of poor marksmanship and poor preparation."</em> I agree totally with you on this, but my point is, why are there so many poor marksman in the woods wounding deer. My argument is that this pervasive mentality of chest shooting a deer because it is a larger kill area with greater margin for area, leads to sloppy poor marksmanship. Why? Because new, less experienced, lazy or irresponsible hunters are lead to believe that there is no need to become proficient marksman because if they can use a gun designed to kill an elephant and shoot the deer somewhere in the shoulder region, they can kill a deer.</p><p></p><p>Again, I am not saying anyone on here is this way. I am making a generalization here. As you stated benchracer, the right kill area on a chest shot is a small area behind the shoulder. So it is clear that you personally and the other posters here believe that the correct area on a chest shot is a "SMALL" area that must be precisely aimed for. I totally agree. But the general overall hunting arena at large does not share this dedication to precision marksmanship and for them, a chest shot is the "Lazy hunters choice", for a kill shot, and this results in poor marksmanship and thousands of chest shot wounded deer each year.</p><p></p><p>I believe that if the pervasive mentality in deer hunting was, "Aim Small, Hit Small" (i.e. head shot), this would encourage better marksmanship throughout the deer hunting community at large. </p><p></p><p>Just my opinion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jungleexplorer, post: 1016462, member: 56322"] Thanks for the info and personal experience on 9 twist and 75gr .223 bullets. That is very informative and useful. Yes I know my line of conversation seems conflicting in that I am talking about head shooting and am looking for body shot ammo (JSP). The reason is that this rifle is going to be primarily a varmint rifle, that on rare occasion might be used to shoot a deer. When it comes to shooting varmints, I shoot for the body in most cases, especially if they are way out there. Thus the need for an expanding round. I am the type of person that when I find a round that suits my needs, I stick with it and never mess with anything. I am not constantly changing scope, trying out new ammo, re-sighting my gun in. I bought my Savage 110 model .234 in 1993. I tried three different brands of ammo in it until I found one it like, which turned out to be Winchester 100gr Power Points. I bought 10 boxes of that ammo (all the same run) and I still have 2 boxes of that ammo. Every time I have pulled the trigger on that gun in the last 21 years, it has dropped what every I aimed it at. I did upgrade the scope in 1996 from a Simmons 3x9x30 (came on the gun) to a Bushnell Banner 4x12x40 (mostly for low light conditions) and had to re-sight it in. But other then that, it stays in it's hard case until deer season, when I take it out and shoot it once at a 200 yard target (this shot is for psychological confidence purposes, to remove any doubt that the gun is still dead on). This is what I am doing with this new 223. I want to find a round that were serve the guns primary purpose of varmint hunting up to 300 yards, but at the same time be a reasonable good round to kill a deer out to 200 yards. Also, I have 20 nieces and nephews who's fathers are not hunters who come to me to take them hunting, and this will be the gun I will most likely let them use as well. Since they are not trained in marksmanship like I am, I want to put something in their hands that I am sure will take the animal down, even if they do decide to take a chest shot on it. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you had to say about poor marksmanship being the cause of wounded deer. I also agree that a properly placed chest shot does not waste very much meat, although it is very messy to clean the deer. But if you will bare with me here, I have found that the number one reason, most (not all) hunters not only choose the chest shot, but defend it vehemently, is that they lack the confidence or do not want to dedicate the time and energy to become proficient enough to consistently make a head shot. If you go back and read some of the post by other posters that are in the chest shooting arena, you will see a consistent line of thinking in this chest shot mentality. Before I say anything else I want to make it clear that I am not attacking anyone here. I am simply making a philosophical case. I am not not trying to offend anyone or say that anyone else is wrong or unethical. I believe everyone on here is a great American, sportsman and very ethical. I am going to use some statements from some posters here to show a psychological mindset that I believe is pervasive and to may lead to some people (not anyone on here) being poor marksman's. Take this statement by Corey, in regards to why a chest shot represent a better option for a kill shot on a deer. [I]"Its a larger area that gives me more margin of error"[/I] And these statement by Garycrow;[I] "A heart/lung shot is a much more ethical shot because of the size of the kill zone, a slight miss from point of aim is still a lethal shot."[/I] and [I]"Because the head is a very small target"[/I] What is the number one rule of good marksmans ship that I think we can all agree with? [I]"Aim small, MISS small"[/I] But if you ask a dozen chest shooters why they think the chest is the best area to shoot a deer, their answers will amount to, [I]"It's a larger kill zone with greater margin for error".[/I] This is essentially the opposite mentality of "Aim small, miss small." It essentially saying, "Aim big so you can miss big". As you so eloquently stated in regards to all the many chest shot deer you have seen wounded, [I]"Most of them are the result of poor marksmanship and poor preparation."[/I] I agree totally with you on this, but my point is, why are there so many poor marksman in the woods wounding deer. My argument is that this pervasive mentality of chest shooting a deer because it is a larger kill area with greater margin for area, leads to sloppy poor marksmanship. Why? Because new, less experienced, lazy or irresponsible hunters are lead to believe that there is no need to become proficient marksman because if they can use a gun designed to kill an elephant and shoot the deer somewhere in the shoulder region, they can kill a deer. Again, I am not saying anyone on here is this way. I am making a generalization here. As you stated benchracer, the right kill area on a chest shot is a small area behind the shoulder. So it is clear that you personally and the other posters here believe that the correct area on a chest shot is a "SMALL" area that must be precisely aimed for. I totally agree. But the general overall hunting arena at large does not share this dedication to precision marksmanship and for them, a chest shot is the "Lazy hunters choice", for a kill shot, and this results in poor marksmanship and thousands of chest shot wounded deer each year. I believe that if the pervasive mentality in deer hunting was, "Aim Small, Hit Small" (i.e. head shot), this would encourage better marksmanship throughout the deer hunting community at large. Just my opinion. [/QUOTE]
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