Barrel twist and length?

[Jungleexplorer]

I am just trying to learn here. I have a .223 with a 1in9 twist and a 22 inch long barrel. I just bought some Hornady .223 75gr ammo to use in it. I was reading an article on another site that suggested that 75gr was right on the edge of what a 1in9 twist is good for. In the article it was talking more about shorter barrels like you get on assault rifles (AR-15) and I was just wondering if the same holds true for longer barrels?

 

[justgoto]

Twist Rate Stability Calculator | Berger Bullets

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Twist Rate Stability Calculator | Berger Bullets

Thanks. The calculator indicates that my stability is "Marginal". I guess I will only know what I will get when I go to the range. Wish I would have known about this barrel twist vs bullet weight thing before I ordered these bullets. Living and learning!

 

[FearNoWind]

... Living and learning!

It's a life long process. Take it one step at a time. You're doin' just fine.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

It's a life long process. Take it one step at a time. You're doin' just fine.

Thanks. I just learned another thing about bullets I did not know. The bullets I bought are Match grade. I thought that "Match" grade just meant that they were manufacturer to higher more precise standards. I just read that even though the Hornady ammo I bought is Hollow Point, because it is match grade, it will not expand if used for hunting and will act very much like a FMJ. My question is, why even make a hollow point match grade bullets? I mean, I always thought hollow point is supposed to be for more expansion.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Jungleexplorer,

I used to shoot a Savage .223 nine twist. Regularly I fired 80 grain Sierras and 75 grain Hornady to 300 yards. The Sierras normally made a ten shot group of 2". The longest kill I made with that rifle was 527 yards on a rock chuck feeding away from me. The A-Max entered below the tail and exited below the chin. The inside looked like a deer when hit with a big game bullet.

 

[jackem]

Thanks. I just learned another thing about bullets I did not know. The bullets I bought are Match grade. I thought that "Match" grade just meant that they were manufacturer to higher more precise standards. I just read that even though the Hornady ammo I bought is Hollow Point, because it is match grade, it will not expand if used for hunting and will act very much like a FMJ. My question is, why even make a hollow point match grade bullets? I mean, I always thought hollow point is supposed to be for more expansion.

Other will know more and jump in.... As I understand it, more weight needs to be in the aft portion of the bullet for stability- so a hollow point is used to lighten the forward end of long pointy VLDs.

Jack

 

[FearNoWind]

... I always thought hollow point is supposed to be for more expansion.

Bullet design is much more technical than most shooters realize. Target bullets aren't designed to expand in the same way a hunting bullet of similar design might. Why a hollow point in a target bullet? The reason may be that the bullet is manufactured on the same equipment as the hunting bullet but is of difference design/composition. Truthfully, I don't know the technical answer. I can tell you that the reason the bullet manufacturer makes a distinction between hunting and target bullets is that the target bullet, more often than not, acts very much like a full metal jacketed bullet and causes more wounded game than a propertly selected hunting bullet.
This, however, will help explain some of the bullet design considerations:
Bullets for Beginners

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Jungleexplorer,

I used to shoot a Savage .223 nine twist. Regularly I fired 80 grain Sierras and 75 grain Hornady to 300 yards. The Sierras normally made a ten shot group of 2". The longest kill I made with that rifle was 527 yards on a rock chuck feeding away from me. The A-Max entered below the tail and exited below the chin. The inside looked like a deer when hit with a big game bullet.

That is encouraging to hear. I might make it out to the range this weekend and I am hoping for good results. This gun is new to me and I have only shot some 55gr fmj Tulmmo and 55gr psp Remington through it. The Tulammo shot good but the Remington shot like crap, so I went looking for a better hunting round and found a sale on this 75gr bthp Hornady ammo on Midway. Now I have found out that this match grade ammo is not good for hunting. So, back to the search I go.

What I am looking for is a .223 bullet that I can shoot deer with up to 200 yards and coyotes up to 300 yards or more.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Bullet design is much more technical than most shooters realize. Target bullets aren't designed to expand in the same way a hunting bullet of similar design might. Why a hollow point in a target bullet? The reason may be that the bullet is manufactured on the same equipment as the hunting bullet but is of difference design/composition. Truthfully, I don't know the technical answer. I can tell you that the reason the bullet manufacturer makes a distinction between hunting and target bullets is that the target bullet, more often than not, acts very much like a full metal jacketed bullet and causes more wounded game than a propertly selected hunting bullet.
This, however, will help explain some of the bullet design considerations:
Bullets for Beginners

Thanks for the link. I have a question though about a statement in the article.

"A hunter's objective is normally to cause significant soft tissue damage, especially to the heart and lungs, so that the animal dies quickly, minimizing the chance of losing the kill"

I am just wondering why this mentality of destroying as much meat as possible (maximizing soft tissue damage) is the desired norm when it comes to hunting, rather then precision shot placement to a vital area (i.e. ear, eye, neck vertebrae etc.) ? I was trained as a child to rely on precision shot placement. Between my father and I we have killed everything from Canadian black bears to 800 pound Amazon Tapirs with standard 22 long rifles because of anatomical understanding of vital kill areas and precision shot placement. Every year I process around 20 deer (for the poor and needy) that come from big game ranches and I find it quite disturbing the amount of meat that is wasted by this mentality, especially when a 100 pound whitetail is shot through the chest with a 300 WinMag. Having not grown up in this country, I just don't understand this way of thinking. But I am a meat hunter, not a Trophy hunter, so that may explain it.

 

[Garycrow]

I am just wondering why this mentality of destroying as much meat as possible (maximizing soft tissue damage) is the desired norm when it comes to hunting, rather then precision shot placement to a vital area (i.e. ear, eye, neck vertebrae etc.) ? I was trained as a child to rely on precision shot placement.

Because the head is a very small target that's constantly moving and a slight miss inevitably results in a horribly wounded animal that will suffer greatly before it finally dies. I've seen deer with the lower jaw hanging by the skin where someone tried to head shoot them. Fortunately the ones I've seen were finished off by someone else, but if they hadn't been then they would have died from dehydration or starvation due to not being able to eat or drink. The animal deserves better than that. A heart/lung shot is a much more ethical shot because of the size of the kill zone, a slight miss from point of aim is still a lethal shot. Losing a few pounds of meat due to tissue damage is much preferable to losing an entire animal due to a poorly executed head shot.

Anyone that tells you they're such a crack shot that they'd never screw up a head shot is a fool. I don't care if you're Annie Oakley, try enough head shots and eventually you'll maim one & that animal is in for a horrible death.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

Because the head is a very small target that's constantly moving and a slight miss inevitably results in a horribly wounded animal that will suffer greatly before it finally dies. I've seen deer with the lower jaw hanging by the skin where someone tried to head shoot them. Fortunately the ones I've seen were finished off by someone else, but if they hadn't been then they would have died from dehydration or starvation due to not being able to eat or drink. The animal deserves better than that. A heart/lung shot is a much more ethical shot because of the size of the kill zone, a slight miss from point of aim is still a lethal shot. Losing a few pounds of meat due to tissue damage is much preferable to losing an entire animal due to a poorly executed head shot.

Anyone that tells you they're such a crack shot that they'd never screw up a head shot is a fool. I don't care if you're Annie Oakley, try enough head shots and eventually you'll maim one & that animal is in for a horrible death.

I never considered the "ethical" point of view before. I guess if that is what people are taught, it make sense. I will not argue about what is or is not ethical, because there is more opinion and emotion involved in that then raw fact and it can be a very sensitive area for some people. But I have to respectfully disagree with the assumption that a head shot presents a greater risk of wounding an animal then a body shot. The wound area on the head is extremely small, where as the wound area on a body shot is massive. On a body shot, you can miss horribly and still severely wound the animal. In my 35 years of hunting, I have tracked many deer that have been shoulder shot (by other hunters), some of them for miles. Some I never found. On a head shot, if your aim is off, you are way more likely to completely miss the animal rather then wound it. I am not saying that a wound potential does not exist on a head shot. I am just saying that the wound potential on a head shot is only a fraction of the wound potential on shoulder shot.

You are right about the drop jaw part though. I have (one time) seen a person (who was a shoulder shooter), that did not know how to head shoot, drop jaw a deer and that is truly a sad sight. I respectfully disagree that the chest area is a more sure kill area though. With the exception of that one drop jawed deer, of the many wounded deer that I have tracked, they all have been shoulder shot deer.

I personally have never failed to not dropped a deer in it's tracks with a head shot, and never have I ever drop jawed a deer. But of course, I never shoot unless I am sure of my shot. Last year I let a massive old buck walk away because I was not sure of the shot. I had been hunting him all year and it was the last day of deer season. I knew, because he was old, he would die before the next season came around (of starvation. It's natures way.), but I let him go because I was not sure of the shot. But this comes down to training and self control, which seems to be in short supply these days.

 

[dsculley]

"A hunter's objective is normally to cause significant soft tissue damage, especially to the heart and lungs, so that the animal dies quickly, minimizing the chance of losing the kill"

This is what a properly placed bullet does. When a well built bullet enters the chest cavity it creates a hydraulic shock wave that will pretty much liquify the heart and lungs. If shot placement is good (or at least what I call good), the bullet will enter the chest cavity behind the shoulder and there will be no tissue damage to the muscles normally harvested when cleaning the animal. Some people prefer to shoot the animal in the shoulder so the animal is less likely to be able to run off. After penetrating the shoulder there is still massive trauma to soft tissue for a clean kill. A shoulder hit will damage some of the meat. Depending on the range and the species (size of the animal), a neck or head shot can result in a quick, clean kill with no damage to the carcass. I personally consider an ethical shot one that I KNOW (not believe) I have a very high probability of making. At 100 yds or less the neck/head shot may be a viable option. At 300 yds I am going for the larger chest cavity target. Even though you may shoot 2" groups on paper at 300 yds, are you willing to trust the animal to keep its head and neck in a stable position for you to execute the head or neck shot?

Just my 2 cents.

Dennis

 

[Corey Schwanz]

Couple different topics here and some good discussion! As for the "match" grade bullets, the term match from our standpoint means consistency and quality not necessarily competition vs hunting. Even our hunting bullets are "match grade"
as we try to keep them uniform as possible. As said earlier, there are more factors to bullet design and application than just the tip design.

On the hunting shot placement side, I don't think there is a "best". I personally prefer the main heart/lung area behind the shoulder. Its a larger area that gives me more margin of error in case a shot is pulled or something happens in the heat of the moment (we are all human and "buck fever" is real!). I can see the benefits of head shots but I just don't like the smaller target area and the fact the head of a deer can move erratically, much more so than the body will. Just personal preference. No matter what shot you prefer, if you can execute it by putting the bullet into the vitals (heart/lung/brain) at least 9 out of 10 times, then you should be good to go!

Corey Schwanz
Berger Bullet Tech Support