Annealing 101
- Thread starter J E Custom
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By "dip annealing" do you mean salt bath annealing?
BoatTail
Well-Known Member
J E CUSTOM,
Adjusting the flame length and color is very important and part of the set up that needs attention.
Also in building my own machine, I discovered that the small propane bottles normally used, loose vapor pressure and that changes the flame intensity/temperature, and had to go to a 20 pound tank to get a consistent flame temperature. (Needed when using an automatic machine).
When doing annealing by hand, it is not that important because you can adjust the heat input by time and distance. I used to do all of my annealing by hand, but wanted the most consistency so I decided to make the annealer where time and temperature would be consistent. Don;t know if it effects accuracy but I knew it couldn't hurt.
Since doing annealing this way, I haven't lost/ruined a single piece of brass and bullet tension has been very consistent.
To me time is not as important as quality in anything i do for accuracy and if i can eliminate the human error/factor, I will.
J E CUSTOM
Just curious, did you use one of the sets of drawings and recommended parts out there or design and build your own? Is is a Cake pan based system? I'm in the process of gathering parts for one to build myself now. One thing I did not consider was the significant metal sheet cost.
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Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Salt or lead. I've lead dipped for decades, but I can see that salt is easier to work with.
Let's recap this:
Dip annealing is just as safe as fire. Don't dump it, or catch yourself on fire.
You turn on the melting pot, wait for the medium to melt, insert a thermocouple probe, tweak the pot setting until the medium settles to ~850degF as read on your probe meter, then dip each case to the depth desired (any) for about 10sec (or any other amount of time over a few seconds, makes no difference). You don't need to quench the cases, just put em in a pile for cleanup later. And if that medium temperature swings +/- 50 or even 100degF, that doesn't matter either. It's enough & not too much
You're not trying to time a flame, which is way in excess of desired annealing temperature, and burning off zinc from the alloy (leaving that temper you think you want). Here, you're heating brass from inner and outer sides at once so that it's grain structure is consistent through brass thickness (not softer on outside while harder on inside).
You'll see nearly zero color change from properly stress relieved cases, and by 'properly' I'm talking about the baseline which you've load developed with and manage consistently from then onward.
You don't want your brass or load results to change with this -ever. The whole purpose of this is to eliminate or at least reduce change from desired condition.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Mine is a very simple cake pan type with a control cam that drops one cartridge at a time in. (Some double depending on the case size or speed.
Mine uses a wire feed from a MIG welder and and a speed controller. Simple but very adjustable and functional.
J E CUSTOM
nksmfamjp
Well-Known Member
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- Jan 5, 2004
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Dip/salt bath annealing can work, but there is a lot of misinformation out there on it.
The "dip" is a heat source. How long do you need to dip? That has to be set, otherwise the heat transferred and the temperature of the brass is unknown. With AMP, we're paying someone to do the heat transfer math. With flames, we are measuring brass temp on the inside. With the "dip", I only see people guessing. How do you know you got a full anneal?
Are one of you guys modeling and telling us the recommended dip time?
The "dip" is a heat source. How long do you need to dip? That has to be set, otherwise the heat transferred and the temperature of the brass is unknown. With AMP, we're paying someone to do the heat transfer math. With flames, we are measuring brass temp on the inside. With the "dip", I only see people guessing. How do you know you got a full anneal?
Are one of you guys modeling and telling us the recommended dip time?
This video satisfied my curiosity of the process of Hot Salt Annealing. I kinda like it as there is no bare flame . My thinking is to mount it on a work top of fire brick, but I would also do that with a torch type annealer.
Salt Bath Annealing - The Reloaders Network
A look at Salt Bath Annealing with equipment from Ballistic Recreations.
thereloadersnetwork.com
nksmfamjp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,200
I started watching, the realized it was a 39 min video....any chance you can share how he explains his controls on the variables of heat transfer?This video satisfied my curiosity of the process of Hot Salt Annealing. I kinda like it as there is no bare flame . My thinking is to mount it on a work top of fire brick, but I would also do that with a torch type annealer.
(hope this is allowed and doesn't step on any toes.)Salt Bath Annealing - The Reloaders Network
A look at Salt Bath Annealing with equipment from Ballistic Recreations.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
The heat, which the brass goes to immediately, is EXACTLY the temperature of the bath. Process annealing occurs within a second or two, and any holding at the correct temperature longer means nothing good or bad.
WE DO NOT WANT FULL ANNEAL. The bath temperature is set well below full anneal temperature.
Timing is required with all other processes, to prevent full annealing, because their temperatures exceed full anneal value,
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I think this is along the lines of what you meant.
This video goes over different brands of annealers, their cost and features compared to the salt annealer.
A PID controller is used to keep hot salt temperature consistent. As cases are inserted , the temp will drop. So in lieu of constantly monitoring and adjusting the control of the Lee pot, the PID does this for you while showing the salt temperature. This PID is not provided with the kit. ( in another video, this guy shows how to build this PID which can also be used for lead casting.)
The instructions provided with the hot salt kit include guidelines for different temperatures and time intervals. Just as with the video JE Custom provided, one has to experiment with times. So initial setup is going to require a bit of patience, for instance getting the salt level proper for the caliber being used.
A metronome app on a phone or pad is used to synchronize dipping and retracting the cases in the proper time intervals. ( I did a search and some of those apps are a free download).
After annealing in the hot salt, there is a definite mark on the case indicating the temperature change.
It is apparent that the unpolished cases show the annealing level better that polished cases.
Testing is simply done by comparing the consistency of resized annealed cases versus unannealed resized cases. More measured consistency is found in the annealed cases. ( he runs the annealed cases through a sizing die measures the bump, does the same with unannealed cases and compares the measurements for consistency.)
I believe the PID controller is key to the effectiveness of the salt annealing shown in this video.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
No reason to make it complicated -it's not..
No timing needed
No case stop needed
Set temperature to ~850F, and dip each case a few seconds to depth desired
There is currently no way to measure hoop tension, and nobody is, with any annealing process.
No timing needed
No case stop needed
Set temperature to ~850F, and dip each case a few seconds to depth desired
There is currently no way to measure hoop tension, and nobody is, with any annealing process.
aushunter1
Well-Known Member
LOL
So if those who actually watched the video on salt bathing you can see exactly what I am saying where you cannot correctly anneal brass purely by going on colour change.
Even this guy is guessing!
Imo 3 seconds timing difference (as per their instructions of 4-7 seconds) can be the difference between under & over annealed!
I'll stick to flame annealing in my own hand built machine using a temperature indicator, I can anneal much more brass much faster as well.
My two DIY projects, build # one brass case annealer
Hi guys, been here for a while & actually don't think I have ever started a thread. Anyway I have been active more on the reloading side as it is what I enjoy in he sport, apart from actually pulling the trigger that is 😁 . I did two builds a while ago(around 4 or 5 years ago now) & thought I...
Each to their own!
Like I have said I'd love an AMP, these guys have taken all guess work out of the equation by doing a huge amount of research but on each manufacturers brass metallurgy & thickness etc for each cartridge.
But way to exy for me & you need a different pilot/holder for each cartridge etc so there are on going costs even after purchase.
Still it is a pretty awesome machine!
