Rick Richard
Well-Known Member
You are probably one of the very very few who might stand a chance of survival using a handgun in a bear fight. Most of us strap one one for our feeling of security and think we are good to go…NOT.
Bear country pistol
- Thread starter dkwellman
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Tax collector came to collect. Luckily he wasn't
aggressive but it definitely was a pucker moment. Even more so when he went below us and i couldn't see him. 629 S&W on my chest loaded with 300 gr hard cast. 1895 45-70 with 405 hard cast made me feel a little better.
fta0303
Well-Known Member
There are several types of grizzly attacks. It's possible you will survive an attack due to random encounter, or an attack by a mother with cubs, if the cubs run away - playing dead may help there, as the bear seeks only to teach you a lesson. If an attack by a mother whose cubs tree near her, or if yearling cubs are involved and they attack also, the attack will be fatal unless you can stop it. Predatory attacks are fatal. if you stumble onto a grizzly food cache, you are dead, unless you can kill the bear. Playing dead isn't a top option.
This info gleaned from a couple of books by a man (forgot name, maybe kendall) who conducted bear safety courses for gov't and private industry in BC in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. He was a lifetime observer of bears and a lifetime interviewer of bear attack survivors and witnesses. He differs from Herrero in a number of key points. He attributes the differences to Herrero's use of broad statistics that include "attacks" by bears near human establishments. This man's work centers on bear attacks in wild country. He ran shooting courses for those who might encounter a bear attack. His writing and his experience base are compelling.
He doesn't reject spray out of hand, just notes that it is often ineffective - remember that the bear may well come back after being sprayed, so carry two cans. If you think about it, spraying the bear's fur isn't going to do much of anything, you need to get the spray into eyes or mouth, if mouth, preferably when bear is inhaling. Even then it may only discourage the bear momentarily. Note that he taught a firearms course, not a bear spray course.
I notice his books have disappeared from Amazon, dropped in favor of more touchy-feely or sensationalistic stuff.
LRNut
Well-Known Member
I hunted with Phil and his son; quite the character that guy. Knows his stuff for sure.While 9 mm wouldn't be my first choice,if it was all I had at the moment I would use it.
Here is an account of a 9 mm killing a big bear but with buffalo bore hard cast ammo:
An Official Journal Of The NRA | Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol
Two weeks ago, veteran outfitter Phil Shoemaker was guiding two fishing clients in the Alaska bush when the party came face to face with an enraged grizzly. Shoemaker, armed only with a 9mm semi-auto pistol, defended his clients and himself. Here’s his account …www.americanhunter.org
fta0303
Well-Known Member
When I enquired, Bowen and Linebaugh wouldn't use the New Vaquero to make a .454, 500 WE, 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh. Some concerns about the frame strength, but great concerns about the small grip size compared to the Ruger Bisley grip from the Old Vaquero, due to recoil discomfort. In heavy recoiling cartridges (500 linebaugh) with bear loads (525 gr bullet, 1150 fps), I find the recoil to be unmanageable even in the Ruger Bisley-based revolvers, though tolerable and very painful on a one-shot basis. Freedom Arms grips do better for me, allowing a comfortable shooting experience with all the large calibers that FA offers. I did have trouble with .454 bear loads from Buffalo Bore (360gr at 1350 fps) in a FA, but I unfortunately carved down my grips before I knew better, so maybe not a fair test.
Fortunately, hard cast lead bullets from the larger cartridges, or even a 45 Colt, will penetrate sufficiently to kill a big bear, if you brain shoot him. If you don't brain shoot him, even a mortal wound won't kill him fast enough to save you. A non CNS shot likely turns a black bear, but once in a fight, the grizzly doesn't turn back. It doesn't take a cannon, but does require time that's probably unavailable and skill. THe whole thing scares me.
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
That was a special degree of stupid. Know the story well as we were doing late fall clean up halibut trips in the general vicinity. Back then herring prices were high and most the boats had aviation radios for spotters and many of the planes had marine vhf. Remember listening to the radio as various folks in the response effort talked to each other. Know, or at least knew some folks who were involved in that incident.
Was two weeks late for school that fall but the clean up halibut trips payed for most that years tuition so it made all the follow up work worth it. And listening to the story made for a heck of a tale at school.
My big takeaway is if your capable of reading you probably have more intelligence and critical thinking than Mr Treadwell. The only genius he had leftover from a life of recreational pharmacy was fundraising off the backs of equally dense Hollywood types. Downside was more killed bears in katmai than they think poaching had killed since the parks inception. His foolhearted ideas caused a lot of folks to clean up a big mess.
Don't pet old boars in the fall on a poor pink return year and you should be fine.
Wife has a 10mm for black bear country, no idea if it's enough but it's what she can shoot well. I've a hand cannon as well, but it's so darn big the stubby 375 isn't much heavier and my first shot is always solid with a rifle.
I told this story in another thread about my brother who was a fishing guide in Alaska. He and a friend awoke with a brown bear at fart smelling range. It was taking bites out of his buddies sleeping bag, with his buddy inside it. I'll cut the story short here. Mike, my brother shot the bear from eight feet away with a twelve gauge shotgun using slugs. Center punch into the chest. It ran off with him shooting at it. Had to shot it again as it charged them from twenty feet away. He admitted that he was lucky and hit it between the eyes. KO, end of match. Now if a 12 gauge slug wasn't impressive enough for the brown bear, plus the buckshot pellets. How will your great a wonderful hand gun skills going to work out? It ran about150 yards into a willow patch and waited for them. Hears the center claw from a front paw. I'll add that its nothing like what you have trained for. You're doing your normal stuff, fishing, hunting, just walking along. Boom, crap, here comes a bear! You must drop what you are doing after the shock of seeing the bear coming at you like a freight train.you have just used up half of the very few seconds of this CF letting your brain decide what you need to do. God help you.
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Plinker147
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Most important is bullet selection. penetration is key with pistols since they are under powered when compared to a rifle. Next is a gun you can get out fast and hit what you're aiming at. The cartridge you choose matters less than all of these. I will say I would stay away from hollow point or any expandable bullets. I have shot animals in the head at point blank with .45 acp with these type bullets and they didn't penetrate the skull, they just flatten out. Bullets designed to shoot thru walls and car doors are the ones I would look into. i personally would carry my 9mm before I would carry ant of the big heavy .44 and bigger simply because I know I can hit what i aim fast with my 9mm.
So whatever pistol you can shoot fast and accurate. If you like semi autos a 10mm with good bullets is a great choice. For wheel guns I like the larger framed S&W's double actions if I was going to shoot a magnum.
So whatever pistol you can shoot fast and accurate. If you like semi autos a 10mm with good bullets is a great choice. For wheel guns I like the larger framed S&W's double actions if I was going to shoot a magnum.
My son and I always carry 4' 44 w/300 gun, in a low ride access holster.This in lower states, Ive spent 1000,s hrs in grizzly area.We area both well above average with pistols.If it was AK I would have a larger 454, or friends that bow hunted kodiak use to run a short shotgun slung over there back.
I had a couple run ins with bears around my cabin and chose a .500 Smith. Bad choice. In chest holster still to heavy, too BRUTAL to practice with and even with 4" to **** big.
22 shots at golf balls (hit 12, moved the rest) I was just about crippled in both hands (arthritis). Never shot or carried again. P1 +p for me.
Gotta ask, what part of the world is this fishing trip in?
Donneric
Well-Known Member
I was a Fed biologist in Alaska back in my youth and now live in SW Montana. We get blacks on our deck but grizzlies are up and out of the valley here. When I'm in grizzly areas I still go with a 4" Dan Wesson 357 loaded with hard cast 180's next to my belt buckle and a 6" 629 and hard cast 265's I think in a shoulder rig. All flat nose. Bear spray in the pack. The Dan Wesson is for noise and spraying gravel etc next to bear if it's taking too long surmising the situation. 44 for the real trouble. In camp I have a Keltek 14 round bull pup shotgun selector set for 00 buck and the other tube all slugs. Seems fatal encounters here are on the rise. I'm 100% in on delisting the grizzly here. MT FWP biologists are more than capable managing these bears with limited hunting. Grizzlies aren't dumb I believe. When they start getting hunted they will change for the better.
fta0303
Well-Known Member
Hunted animals everywhere learn to fear man. They aren't stupid. That said, a grizzly isn't big on respect. But leaving bears unhunted leads to attacks on humans.
Idaho Lefty
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The Hornady 180 grain 10mm, XTP driven fast, is also, a "Good" Bullet as it, Expands to about 50% Bigger and it, will still Penetrate, deeply into, a big Bears, Skull ( Fudge those, Body Shots !! ) SADLY, I could not shoot One, "Well enough" due to Old, Flinching problems, so Sold it and I will only go into Grizz Country now with, a good Sized caliber, Rifle. I've "stared down" and Shooed away, a couple of Blackie's, in Elk Country with, my Glock, Mod 19 loaded with, Hot, 147 grain, XTP's in One Hand, Bow in the other hand ( held High ) and, Yelling / Growling, back at them ( Yup it works,.. on Blackies ! ).
I DID however, "feel much better" with the bigger Glock 20, 10 MM, on my Hip, tho,.. BEFORE,.. the M-19 !
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