Is an ELD-M basically just a tipped berger?

[WildRose]

Now we are throwing out late night internet insults-- nice work, must be past your bedtime.

I understand it just fine-- and now you are walking that statement back because you literally have no idea where that gentleman shot that animal do you?? You have no actual idea where he put it or if it did it's job.

You are stuck with your head up your fourth point of contact and unwilling to consider that you might be the very person you described that can only believe what you think is best.

I know if it hit the spine or heart heart/lung junction the animal would not have been lost.

How do I know that? I've shot thousands of animals with the Accubond, Accubond LR, Hornady Interbond, and Swift Scirocco II on two different continents since they came to market.

I've never seen an Accubond or Interbond fail to perform within their design parameters.

As for "insults" don't fling poop at the fan and then whine when it hits you.

 

[WildRose]

Exhibit #1

Is placement a word you don't understand? It simply means it didn't hit where it was designed to perform optimally.

At low impact velocity the Accubond doesn't expand well when hitting only soft tissue so a "lung shot" is not likely to give you a clean quick kill especially if it's high or a little too far back where there's no major blood vessels being ruptured ensuring a quick bleed out.

This is an Accubond with impact velocity of 1800FPS.

This is an Accubond impacting at 3,400FPS.

This is an Accubond at a modest impact velocity of 2,400 FPS.

At any of those velocities it will give you a clean quick kill but only if it is put where it will do the most good. In the case of the low velocity impact that's going to need to be a very precise shot in the heart or heart/lungh junction or the spine.

Once an animal's BP hits zero there's only enough remaining oxygen to the brain or muscles for a few seconds of travel.

Of course, when you put one through the spine all neurological activity beyond that point ceases and they aren't going anywhere if that hit is at or in front of the shoulders.

AccuBond Bullets

Through an exclusive bonding process that eliminates voids in the bullet core, AccuBond bullets couple Nosler's proven copper-alloy jacket with its special lead-alloy core.

www.nosler.com

 

[WildRose]

And you don't get to say on one hand "No way the Accubond failed, he is just a poor shot" and then on the other say "Target bullets fail even if you put them where you need to... they are all bad bullets"

Let me make this easy. Don't attribute things to me I never said.

 

[VLD Pilot]

At long range, target bullets provide the quickest most humane death in my experience.
The one elk I lost was shot with an accubond

I hit one very well and it was a long time before recovery. Shot behind the shoulder didn't expand well but exited. If that had been an Amax, that animal wouldn't have went anywhere if hit in the exact same spot. I'm not recommending to anyone that a target/match bullet should be your choice but as many animals as I've killed with them and not one lost (99% DRT), I will always use them on many of my hunts depending on the animal.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

OP,
I have no experience with either of those on game or even loading them.

In a 300 NMI, curious why not look to a heavier bullet? Seems like a lot of horsepower not to shoot a 245/250 class? Even a heavy mono if you have the twist...Even if either blew up on a shoulder, there would be enough to continue on...

Only ELD-X/M I tried was the 178gr in my 308/30-06. Bullets were inconsistent seating wise, that I gave up on them. Ogive measurements were disappointing and from box to box, I just gave up.

They are plentiful though, seems like my honey hole has had Hornady's on the shelf this entire time...I guess they aren't waiting on raw materials off the coast of California make their bullets. Maybe I should look to them again...

 

[Hugnot]

I believe Berger target bullets have thicker jackets than their hunting bullets. It's about bullet fragmentation beginning inches beyond surface of hit. Hornady ELDM's are not intended for hunting. I use the .224 75 grain ELDM on rodents and see moderate expansion on 8-pound rodents at terminal velocities in the 2000-2500 fps range. The 75 .224 ELDM's out of a .22-.250 swat down prairie dogs real good but no gory aerial effects. If I had to shoot some moderate size beast, I would use the ELDX or better yet a solid copper bullet. I prefer deep or complete penetration.

 

[dman115]

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but there is a pretty good comparison of the 2 ELD bullets on YouTube. Food for thought.

 

[WiscGunner]

I see his writeup of the ELD-X but don't find him recommending the ELD-M as a hunting bullet or any associated data. Do you have a more specific link?

I looked myself, he has removed his article from the site and included it in his book. I guess it is hard to sell a book when giving it all away for free. I will keep looking, maybe there is a cached copy on google somewhere.

 

[WiscGunner]

I looked myself, he has removed his article from the site and included it in his book. I guess it is hard to sell a book when giving it all away for free. I will keep looking, maybe there is a cached copy on google somewhere.

From a thread on Rokslide…

Hornady 180 ELD-M bullet review

I picked up some 180 Hornady ELD-M bullets to try in my 7MM LRM. For those of you not familiar with a 7LRM it's a case designed by Gunwerks of Wyoming. Parent case is a 375 Ruger necked down to .284 with a 30 degree shoulder. Great design but falls short because of poor brass IMO. It really has...

www.rokslide.com

"Here's what Kiwi Nate had to say about the new 180 ELDM: (Nathan Foster world famous gunsmith from Terminal Ballistics Research)"

"By now, many of you will be aware of Hornady's new 7mm 180gr ELD-M. It's the A-MAX that many of us waited several years for. Lately I have been using this bullet in the 7mm Rem Mag and 7mm Practical. Please take note that this bullet can develop higher pressures than the Berger VLD. You'll get the velocities but you need to drop powder charges when starting out. If you are switching from a 160-162 grain bullet to the 180 grain, go down at least 6 grains, not simply 2 grains (based on 1 grain per 10 grains bullet as is common in the manuals and proves safe when using start loads). Start way down low, then come up. You may find that the sweet spot is 4.5 grains lower than where it was when you were using a 162 grain pill.

It is also important to understand that being such a long bullet, the tip (rather than the ogive) may contact the button of the seating stem within your seating die. If the button touches the bullet tip rather than the ogive, it will play merry hell with concentricity during seating and you will see fliers downrange. If you have such issues that need to be remedied, the options are to contact your die maker and ask for a stem suitable for match style bullets or failing this, you may need to have your existing stem altered (drilled) by a gunsmith.

The 180 grain ELD-M is a hard hitting pill. All I can say about its performance is wow. That should be enough for most of you. It meets and exceeds all of my expectations as predicted in the Cartridges book second edition which was released just before this bullet became publicly available. It does however need a good deal of magazine space, boasting max OAL's of around 88.3mm (3.476") in the Rem Mag (and therefore .280 Rem and AI) and up to 93mm when using the Manson Reamer Practical (3.661"), leaving around 1mm or 40 thou for smooth feeding (and a wee bit of room for throat wear) when using the M700 and factory box magazine (non-detachable). I can tell you that it took a good deal of back and forth to ensure that the Manson fixed throat reamer would suit the new ELD-M prior to actually being able to handle and measure the new pills. Fortunately, we nailed the throat design. The ELD-M has to my way of thinking optimized the Practical. A gentle stroke of the trigger results in a horrendous thump followed by two sets of hooves pointing straight up in the air. It doesn't get any better than this.

I suggest that you do not chase every ounce of velocity with this pill. If velocities are down by 50fps from where you hoped they would be, then leave well enough alone. If your Rem Mag yields 2800fps, so be it. If your Practical yields 3000fps, so be it. This bullet will still deliver the goods and boy oh boy does it cheat the wind, putting a lot of other combos to shame. Dave Emary and his team at Hornady really have made an outstanding bullet.

As for the G1 BC, I suggest trying the following (as per Hornady's basic predictions):

2500fps and above = .777

2230fps to 2500fps = .748

1400fps to 2230fps = .731

You will need to tweak these to suit your individual rifle and twist rate but so far, these BC's appear to be close to Hornady's predictions and as a basic guide to the 9.25 (factory rifles) and 9 twist magnums. Those who wish to shoot to extreme ranges will want to drop another .3 at 1500fps. If you do not have a ballistics calculator that allows for multiple BC's, I would suggest setting the G1 BC to .750 (the 8 twist rifles average out at a BC of around .810). This will put you slightly high when shooting at around 600 to 700 yards but it is better to strike high than to have a potential and ever increasing low POI error. Do keep in mind that there is no substitute for actual down range field testing of the individual rifle. Also keep in mind that at very long ranges, small errors in turret calibration become much more exaggerated. It is very important that you take this on board and not be too quick to blame all ills on the BC."

Also addition discussion on twist rates and speeds here…

Discussion Forums

 

[Huntnful]

OP,
I have no experience with either of those on game or even loading them.

In a 300 NMI, curious why not look to a heavier bullet? Seems like a lot of horsepower not to shoot a 245/250 class? Even a heavy mono if you have the twist...Even if either blew up on a shoulder, there would be enough to continue on...

Only ELD-X/M I tried was the 178gr in my 308/30-06. Bullets were inconsistent seating wise, that I gave up on them. Ogive measurements were disappointing and from box to box, I just gave up.

They are plentiful though, seems like my honey hole has had Hornady's on the shelf this entire time...I guess they aren't waiting on raw materials off the coast of California make their bullets. Maybe I should look to them again...

Thanks for your input!

I definitely like the speed and flatter trajectory of the lighter bullets, which are still pretty heavy for caliber, for hunting out to 1200. The higher BC's of the 245/250 don't even become relevant until like a mile out, besides and inch or 5 for wind. But, I do agree that it would be a much more stout bullet as far as actual killing would be concerned. I just would rather not give up that much velocity, that's my only reason honestly . I don't think I can shoot a rifle below 3100fps anymore for hunting haha. It feels like I'm throwing a rock lol.

I also have 199 Hammers that I'm hoping to load around 3300-3350fps for a do all bullet. But I'd also like to have a true long range, 1200yd bullet setup as well.

 

[Highlander44]

Been researching these bullets a fair amount. I've already killed a decent amount with bergers, but the ELD-M's have peaked my interest lately also. It seems like their construction is very similar, except for the tip on the ELD-M. I think the tip on the ELD-M may make expansion just a hair quicker at closer ranges, but aid in the expansion, and more importantly, consistent expansion, at longer ranges.

I've been looking specifically at the 225 ELD-M as an option for my 300 NMI. They are readily available and have a higher BC than the 230 Hybrid Bergers.

Curious if this makes sense to anyone haha? Or if anyone has used both for a comparison? Or even specifically, used the 225 ELD-M as of late for killing deer & elk.

Gunwerks podcast (long range pursuit) was just talking about these- very similar between the 2, but the eld-m had less penetration than the eld-x. I believe it was episode 89

 

[Stgraves260]

Thanks for some insight into your experience with them!


Good to hear! I'm honestly not worried about long range performance as much as I am close range performance. I feel like they would be an excellent long range bullet!


Yeah I killed a few bucks with the ELD-X and they did their job for sure! I'm also just not scared to shoot a target bullet at game either though. Especially a 225gr. at a big mule deer. They can't handle that kind of trauma like an elk possibly can.

It doesn't have anything to do with being scared of using a target bullet at a live animal. It has to do with making a clean humane kill. Use bullets for their intended purpose. Target bullets for targets, hunting bullets for hunting. Be respectful to the hunt. Respect the animals and give them the decency for a quick death. They are giving their life up to you and your family to put food on the table.

 

[5RWill]

People have a tendancy to want to believe whatever they are using or doing is "right" or "the best". Usually that proves not to be the case with the vast majority of people especially most hunters who are clueless beyond pulling the trigger, gun goes "bang". Then either the deer is dead or they missed.

Of course, most of those folks struggle to put 3 shots into a 6" pie plate at 100yds and if they manage it they think they are a sniper.

Personally I like to do everything reasonably possible to ensure the highest chances of success which starts with using a quality hunting bullet that I understand and putting it where it can perform as designed.

If that's a frangible bullet that place is going to be in soft tissue like the lungs, if it's a bonded or compartmentalized bullet that's going to be punching bone/spine or a precise heart/lung junction shot on soft bodied game if it's dangerous game I'll still use an expanding bullet rather than a solid to give myself a greater margin of error.

Rose you know I'm a fan but there are 30+ pages on the hide of SMK kills of people that are incredible shots. I think it's a bit disingenuous to paint a broad brush like that. Most folks that reload their own ammo aren't remotely comparable to your average hunter, who walks into sportsmans and takes advice of the counter guy as gospel.

To my second point because this discussion will be beat to death till the end of time. I honestly think either will work. I've been hunting with match bullets for the last 10 years, granted only on medium size game. I think we're forgetting that technology has advanced bullet and jacket design so much that match bullets are pretty viable for hunting game. I say this all the time and you've reiterated on it in this thread, but poke holes where they need to go and the animal will go down. I'm not saying hunt elk with an RDF. But the ELD has proven to be completely formidable for hunting game. The bullet design is eerily similar to it's hunting cousin the ELD-X, jacket thickness and expansion void withstanding.

Barbour creek has ample video comparison's at extended range. Now I'm not advocating shooting elk at 900yds with a 6.5CM. But I wouldn't fret to much about taking my 180gr ELDm out of my 7 Sherman Short for an elk, least I have yet to recover a bullet from any whitetail in the past 3 years from 330yds to 641yds. Through and through it's been a monster. I know elk are different. My point is while the accubond is a wonderful bullet, I think it's an oversimplification to just say match bullets are terrible this day in age. My experience is just opposite of that.

 

[Methow Packer]

I've killed probably 100 to 120 big game animals with Nosler Accubonds. They die plenty fast when you hit em in the vitals. 12 to 700 yds. Multiple calibers, short action to long action. Deer, bear, hogs, elk. Dead. No suffering or delay. I've killed another 20 or 30 with eld-m and Berger bullets. I like them for ranges beyond 400 yds. Not too fond of how they react on bone especially under 200 yds. Make one hell of a mess. But they do fly straight, cut the wind and make a guy not have to be so perfect on his wind calls at 600 to 800 yds. My system is I carry two types of bullets with me. A controlled expansion or mono for close range, which are in my rifle at all times. When, and if I need a vld style bullet for 400+ yds I grab those from my pack while I'm setting up. This system works great for me. I just spend some extra range time finding a controlled expansion or mono that has nearly the exact same point of impact preferably an inch high or low at 100 and write it down on my dope card. I never know what bullet is going to be the one. Could be a Hammer, Scirocco, Accubond or Barnes LRX but there's always one that shoots really close to a ABLR, Berger or Eld-m. Just takes more trigger time and a guy can always use more of that in his life. Win-win.

You've got the right systems in my opinion. I too have two loads that I shoot that are the same POI. 215Hybrid and 215 ABLR. The 200AB is my first choice in the woods or close range