What would you do?

[Alibiiv]

I had this conversation with the smith the first go round and he said that he did use the old style reamer, I'm not sure what go guage but I would have to think it would be the original 40 degree as well. I will call him tomorrow and check. So if this is the issue could I use the 280 ai brass that has been fired in my chamber, use a bump guage and set my neck die to bump the shoulder back 20 thou and be properly head spaced then? Sorry this is a lot to understand. I'm pretty sure it is a headspace problem since I can almost feel the give when the round is chamberied and contacted by the firing pin, then again what do I know.

Please don't apologize it took me months to sort this out. I'm not an expert, or a gunsmith nor do I play one on TV, just have done a lot of research on this topic; and I'm not all that certain that have all of this right? It really has to suck when you buy a rifle anticipating to have something really special and it turns out to be a PITA! Because the rifle is a new build, there are a number of extraneous variables that are applicable to your rifle. Did you try calling the original person who you bought the rifle from, what did that person say? One thing that you can say for certain to the person who you bought the rifle from is, that before you bought the rifle you didn't have this problem and since you've purchased it from him now you do. Due to the high potential that there's a probability that the dies you are using are not the proper ones for the chambering of your rifle, I would definitely need to find out what chambering/version you have for your .280 Ackley Improved; the SAAMI or the Traditional .280 Ackley Improved. And....this actually may not be the problem with your rifle, however it would help to rule this out before looking some place else. I was going to do a .280AI, but changed my mind and am building a .270AI instead. You can thank people at Nosler for this mess/confusion between their cartridge and the original Ackley Improved wildcat. The reamer that is used for "either chambering" is the same reamer, it's just that for the traditional Ackley Improved (Wildcat) the shoulder for the case is reamed .014 thousandths deeper. I think that something that you could do would be to take 10 casings that "have" been fired in your rifle, set up your shell holder and then your full-length resizing die putting a .014 thousandths space between the shell holder and the full-length sizing die and lock your die up. From there reload some ammunition and go to the range to see how they work in your rifle. I don't know the gunsmith who was used for the build, however it would seem that he ought to know exactly what chambering you have on your rifle because that's his job; and....it shouldn't cost you anything for him to tell you that. Telling you that he used the "standard" reamer is not really telling you what you need to know to rule out the whether you have the right or wrong dies for your rifle. I've attached a thread to this post from "Gunsmith" Talk (hope it helps), please note in the diagram that is comparing the measurements of the two cases (SAAMI/Traditional) the differences where the shoulder intersects with the neck, the SAAMI is 2.174 thousandths and the TRADITIONAL ACKLEY measure 2.188 = .014 thousandths. Good luck it's sad to read that you bought a rifle and are now having a situation where you don't know when the rifle is going to go off.

https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/280-ackley-improved-alert

 

[Bob Wright]

Could you also achieve the headspace measurement on a full length sized brass and short seating a primer about .020-.030 proud of the case head, then put it into battery depressing the primer into the pocket using the bolt to seat it. No need to fire it? Then measure the remaining protrusion....maybe we're saying the same thing...

 

[muleystalker]

I had this conversation with the smith the first go round and he said that he did use the old style reamer, I'm not sure what go guage but I would have to think it would be the original 40 degree as well. I will call him tomorrow and check. So if this is the issue could I use the 280 ai brass that has been fired in my chamber, use a bump guage and set my neck die to bump the shoulder back 20 thou and be properly head spaced then? Sorry this is a lot to understand. I'm pretty sure it is a headspace problem since I can almost feel the give when the round is chambered and contacted by the firing pin, then again what do I know.

You only want to Bump the shoulder back .002" not .020" when resizing.

 

[codym]

Please don't apologize it took me months to sort this out. I'm not an expert, or a gunsmith nor do I play one on TV, just have done a lot of research on this topic; and I'm not all that certain that have all of this right? It really has to suck when you buy a rifle anticipating to have something really special and it turns out to be a PITA! Because the rifle is a new build, there are a number of extraneous variables that are applicable to your rifle. Did you try calling the original person who you bought the rifle from, what did that person say? One thing that you can say for certain to the person who you bought the rifle from is, that before you bought the rifle you didn't have this problem and since you've purchased it from him now you do. Due to the high potential that there's a probability that the dies you are using are not the proper ones for the chambering of your rifle, I would definitely need to find out what chambering/version you have for your .280 Ackley Improved; the SAAMI or the Traditional .280 Ackley Improved. And....this actually may not be the problem with your rifle, however it would help to rule this out before looking some place else. I was going to do a .280AI, but changed my mind and am building a .270AI instead. You can thank people at Nosler for this mess/confusion between their cartridge and the original Ackley Improved wildcat. The reamer that is used for "either chambering" is the same reamer, it's just that for the traditional Ackley Improved (Wildcat) the shoulder for the case is reamed .014 thousandths deeper. I think that something that you could do would be to take 10 casings that "have" been fired in your rifle, set up your shell holder and then your full-length resizing die putting a .014 thousandths space between the shell holder and the full-length sizing die and lock your die up. From there reload some ammunition and go to the range to see how they work in your rifle. I don't know the gunsmith who was used for the build, however it would seem that he ought to know exactly what chambering you have on your rifle because that's his job; and....it shouldn't cost you anything for him to tell you that. Telling you that he used the "standard" reamer is not really telling you what you need to know to rule out the whether you have the right or wrong dies for your rifle. I've attached a thread to this post from "Gunsmith" Talk (hope it helps), please note in the diagram that is comparing the measurements of the two cases (SAAMI/Traditional) the differences where the shoulder intersects with the neck, the SAAMI is 2.174 thousandths and the TRADITIONAL ACKLEY measure 2.188 = .014 thousandths. Good luck it's sad to read that you bought a rifle and are now having a situation where you don't know when the rifle is going to go off.

https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/280-ackley-improved-alert

Your right. The person I bought the rifle claimed he never fired a round out of it, that it had only been test fired by the smith. The first major issue with the rifle was that it would not fire 280 rem factory ammo. It would dent the primer but no ignition. Sent it back to the smith and he re-set head space and put a new firing pin spring in. We talked several times about the reamer and he stated it wasn't the new SAAMI reamer but the older 40 degree reamer. I failed to do my research on the dies being different. I will call him again tomorrow and see if he can send me the reamer specs. I feel like throwing this rifle down the range at this point. I've spent a ton of time and money but I'm determined to get it right. Sorry there was a typo .002 shoulder bump is correct.

 

[Majopikeras]

Let me suggest:

1. Give your chamber a good cleaning
2. Expand your case neck to. 308 cal
3. Set your sizing die 2 full turns back and size the case.
4. Try to chamber the case (it shouldn't chamber)
5. Screw your die 1/5 turn, size, try to chamber.
6. Repeat step 5 until you just close the bolt under some resistance.
7. Now you have a 7mm neck, and a step to. 308 cal (false shoulder which is giving that resistance against chamber)
8. Seat bullets slightly jammed if you want.
9. Shoot to fireform
10. When you size again., use neck size or bump shoulder 2thou back


If you fireform just jamming bullets, you will Not have misfires but you will have case head separation. This effect is probably more pronounced with belted magnums. The false shoulder holds the case and it's just the shoulder blowing out. This method is causing extra work to the neck but you can deal with it annealing if need be but you can't deal with a case head separation (well you can buy new brass )

Hope this helps ...

 

[Bob Wright]

Don't give up! Unless you want to throw your gun my way, instead of down range lol!
You're drilling down. Take a breather.
Question everything again.
The beauty of the AI conversions was they fired the parent cartridge to fire form to the AI version. My money is on headspace, as it sometimes fails to fire, you mentioned "bolt feel" being weird, you're getting a primer strike but no ignition, you are just "that much" off. Let us know what you find. Interesting....
If you have everything correct in your dies and chamber, headspaced w/go no go gages, anneal your troubled misfiring brass. Take careful headspace measurements and record it to each cartridge before and after firing and see if they fireformed differently ( I have the Hornady gages). Compare to rounds that fired fine before you had misfires on others.
My freshly annealed 7mm mag brass surprisingly grew by .001 to .004 on brass that had multiple firings on them, and were Nosler brass. Now, they are all within .001 with one firing after annealing. I had no misfires either way, but I now have a good baseline knowing my datum line is good on the shoulder on all brass and they chamber smoothly. On the belted mags, the headspace is pure slop at the shoulder and shockingly they can grow .020 or more, since they are headspaced off the belt when new. Mine are .018 off the shoulder with new SAAMI brass....wow. That's why annealing corrected the headspace by the final few thousandths. They were work hardened after that first firing. The 280 AI is moving that shoulder by .091 fire forming the parent cartridge. Way more than my 7mm mag.

 

[Alibiiv]

My 280 PO Ackley will not fire the first time every time [kind of rare that they do not] if I do not have them jammed either. As will most. But just a slight lift of the bolt to reset the firing pin and another trigger pull usually takes care of that.

With what you have written here, you too could be experiencing the same situation as the OP. By jamming a bullet into the lands the pressure of the bullet is making up for the .014 thousandths of an inch shortness that I have been writing about, and holding the base of the casing against the rear of the bolt. Especially if you have a custom built rifle.

 

[25WSM]

If you love near Newcastle PA I will fix your problem for free. I have built a bunch of 280 ack imp. And shoot one in 1000k compatition. I would need your gun and dies. I have brass. But would measure your brass to see the headspace you have. And how much shoulder bump you have. I have smithed for over 30 yrs and will have this shooting every pull of the trigger in 10 minutes. Shep

 

[trackhoehunter]

alibiiv I don't think I took into consideration that he is working with formed brass. I have not fired a whole lot of fire form brass out of mine either but I don't believe any time that I have had a FTF. The only ftf's I have had were when shooting regular 280 handloads that were not jammed. Does this make more sense explain my occasional problem? I jumped the gun and got ahead of myself thinking he was having the same issue I was but his is different.

 

[codym]

If you love near Newcastle PA I will fix your problem for free. I have built a bunch of 280 ack imp. And shoot one in 1000k compatition. I would need your gun and dies. I have brass. But would measure your brass to see the headspace you have. And how much shoulder bump you have. I have smithed for over 30 yrs and will have this shooting every pull of the trigger in 10 minutes. Shep

Shep that is one hell of an offer, unfortunately I'm in southern New Mexico. I would pay you for the knowledge if nothing else!

 

[Alibiiv]

alibiiv I don't think I took into consideration that he is working with formed brass. I have not fired a whole lot of fire form brass out of mine either but I don't believe any time that I have had a FTF. The only ftf's I have had were when shooting regular 280 handloads that were not jammed. Does this make more sense explain my occasional problem? I jumped the gun and got ahead of myself thinking he was having the same issue I was but his is different.

Okay I got it, understood. There's so much confusion over this caliber, it's just crazy. It took me months of research to figure this out due to the variance from the traditional Ackley Improved.

 

[450 Dakota]

Once you get them fire formed and you resize to push the shoulder back .002-.003 you should be good to go.

 

[nicholasjohn]

Did you chronograph the loads? Has the primers backed out of the cases on firing? The best indicator of excessive head space, Or die adjustment problem.
If you have only neck sized the cases and they are not firing. Something in the bolt may be causing the problem.
Take the bolt apart, Check if there is some scrap of metal loose in the firing pin front section. Clean the whole firing pin channel. Carefully insert the firing pin in from the front of the bolt and see if it slides in an out smooth. There is a possibility the tip of the firing pin is bent and dragging, Check for shiney or scratched areas on side of tip.
Check under the bolt handle where it closes in the action and stock. Make sure the bolt is going down so the firing pin is not dragging in the cocking slot on the back of the bolt. If the bolt handle has been replaced any metal removed off the under side, And the bolt rotating and dragging down the side of the cocking notch by rotating to far.
It could be a bad lot of primers. Hard cup or incomplete compound.
Good Luck in finding the problem and a cure.

 

[nicholasjohn]

From past experience with a 30-06 AI, it sounds to me like the guy who spoke of a headspace issue from using SAAMI-spec dies and/or factory brass in a longer wildcat chamber has the answer. The guy who suggested expanding the necks to .30 caliber, and then necking back down ( leaving a headspacing shoulder at the base of the neck ) has a fix that will work. I did that with an 8mm expander button to accomplish this with my 30-06 AI years ago, and it did the trick nicely. Since .30 cal. is the next step up from 7mm, that is the correct expander to use in this case. Hopefully the 40 degree shoulders on factory 280 AI brass won't buckle under the expander button. If they do, you may have to use regular 280 Rem. brass and fire-form, since the gradual shoulder on that brass probably won't buckle under the .30 caliber expander button. You could just use 30-06 brass, but the necks will be a bit short.

If you want to permanently fix the problem, have a gunsmith set the barrel back a turn ( to get the extractor cut oriented properly ) and re-cut the chamber with a SAAMI-spec reamer. Otherwise, you're going to have to do the necking-up/necking-down drill every time you load a new batch of brass.

When I had this issue with the 30-06 AI, factory brass only fired about half the time, and the 'smith told me I was sizing them incorrectly. Well, since I was using factory loads for fire-forming, that was incorrect. He wasn't interested in dealing with the problem, so I found a new gunsmith. The second guy new right away what the problem was, and promptly fixed it for me. He told me that his happens all the time with the Ackley Improved cartridges.

The gun works fine now, and factory ammo goes in with a "crush fit" when the shoulder of the cartridge contacts the shoulder of the chamber. Closing the bolt requires some hand pressure, and I can feel the resistance. When you can't feel resistance, the gun will likely not fire that cartridge. When reloading, I am very careful not to bump the shoulder back too far, and the sizing die is not screwed all the way down to contact the shell holder. If I do that, I will be starting over with what has proven to be a very tedious process.