Way in or way out ?

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If you'll carefully study what the OCW method is designed to accomplish, it is simply this: Three ladder tests, fired in round-robin fashion. And that's it. It has a significant statistical advantage over the results of a single ladder test, which I explain more in depth here-->

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Dan

That is totally incorrect. OCW is not three ladders in round robin. It is at best three half ladders with 50% data. 3 times 50% data does not equal better than 100% or even 90% data.

OCW does not use a chrono but simply relies on a repeated "coincidental POI". A true ladder uses a chrono to spot the tuning nodes of similar MVs which exist with a node, ALONG with the coincidental POIs. I might get a POI without the similar MV closeness and therefore I would normally skip that node or at best repeat that short string to confirm no node. That is a very fundamental difference and that does not make OCW remotely close to firing 3 complete ladders.

OCW is based on correcting issues or problems with the ladder technique as you understand it. Therefore it ASSUMES that you fire the ladder in bad conditions and make a bad shot, therefore the need to fire three groups of everything. OCW assumes that fouling with dramatically effect POI but matches are normally shot with as much as 80-120 plus shots w/o cleaning and zero loss of extreme accuracy. So I am not worried about 30-35 shots with zero and a ladder. So that is a false issue unless your barrel as pits or occlusions which is a whole different issue. I know when I make a bad shot and I never test LR in windy conditions, as that is dumb to test in those conditions.

A ladder will normally go 15-25 shots and ID 2-4 nodes. I have never seen any pics of OCW going over 6-8 intervals max and somehow a node is always found. Now is it really a node or is it the tail end or start of a real node? Is it the best node? Is it the node at the desired MV range (w/o chrono cannot tell and OCW does not use chrono). OCW cannot really answer those questions while a real ladder and chrono will answer them.

Bottom line is no way OCW is a super repeated ladder w/o a chrono. It is at best a repeated half ladder and waste of bullets and powder for accuracy that is consistent at the extreme levels. It is based on a bunch of false issues or lack of common sense and that is not how I want to go into my load development.

BH
 
BH,

Dude I'm sorry... There simply will not be four true accuracy nodes in a ladder test. Generally, there will be two, and if you're dipping really low with the powder charge you might find three.

If you're finding four nodes at least one of them is going to be a false node.

If you're finding three nodes, one of them is going to be at way under useful velocity and load density--or else way over max.

By following the OCW instructions at my site, a handloader backs down 7 to 10 percent under max and fires three test charges, graduated in 2% increments. Then the OCW test moves up in 1% increments until you reach the published maximum.

By working near the maximum, and identifying the highest accuracy node, better load density is realized, and generally speaking better accuracy as well. Another plus is the bullet will have its highest velocity in this area, so your 22-250 isn't acting like a .223, which would be the case at one of the early "four" accuracy nodes you mention.

You claim that you would toss out a tight group if the chronograph didn't show good numbers. You should not do this. Chronographs can and do make errors. ES can almost always be improved with different seating depths, or even primer swaps. If you're showing a tight group in a ladder at 300 yards I wouldn't let some possibly bogus chrony numbers put me off the trail.

Dan
 
I must admit that I have hijacked some threads in my time , but , you two take the cake ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Way in or way out ? that is the question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Really was looking to see if there were a substantial number of folks that were shooting loads that are very accurate AND seated way IN . Is that to much to ask ? And please , I'm not looking for theoretical answers , just actual experience /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As a result of a bored condition I made this post . That is not to say that I didn't want to hear actual results that others have had in this area . But..........what? .................... head butting , that's what , ( I must say that y'all are being very congenial in your head butting at this time )

Anyway, I reckon this is enough ****ing and moaning on my part .............. but you two do owe me an apology for wrecking an honest post /question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif even if it was posted out of sheer boredom .

Jim B.
 
Jimm First I'll start with a sorry. I was in the muck as much as green and bounty.

Then I'll say that these rounds were seated to mag length. I'm pretty happy so far with way in.
 
I'm sorry as well... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

But I'm just not the kind of guy who will stand there and let someone else take pot shots at him and not hit back. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, check BH's first post on page one. There are bound to be more congenial ways of dissenting. 4ked is able to differ respectfully. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BH has been after me for probably a couple of years now. I didn't know he resided here when I meandered into this fine forum--else I may have left him his territory.

And I may still at that...:(

Dan
 
On second thought...

Naaaaaaaa!
nana.gif


tent.jpg


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Dan
 
Ive got a mag length load for my 300 that uses H4831 instead of H1000, and a 220SMK, and it will shoot under 2" at 400 most days, and smaller some days. Is that small enough to be "very accurate".
Oh, factor in my bipod and the oklahoma wind... some might add my Savage rifle to that list of handicaps, but ill let it slide for now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Seriously for a moment. I would like to commend you, Jimm, and you, abinok, for your Christian signatures. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Perhaps if I can get into fellowship myself I can quit stirring this pot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Dan
 
Thanks Dan.
Ive always believed that in an impersonal place like the internet, its nice to be able to learn a lot about other folks... especially the ones you have never/ will never meet. That being said, I don't know of a better way to use that signature line than to share the words of a man on his deathbead a couple thousand years ago... words that happen to say a lot about who I am, and who I try to be.
It also comes in handy to identify myself to the other believers out there... much more so than tracing an arc in the sand with the tip of my sandal like the old days /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thats where the "fish" symbol many christians use comes from to those of you who may not know. When two people met on a road in ancient times, one believer could trace a curved line on the ground with his toe... and if the other did the same over his own, then they both knew... and it was discrete! an important trait in those first years.

From private correspondance, ive found there are many of my brothers here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Dan , Dan , Dan,

Whatever are we gonna do with you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ?
You are a good guy with good stuff to share . Bountyhunter also has a lot of good stuff to share /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif. You don't have to like him Dan , and Bounty Hunter you , you , .... well you aren't the final answer either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Both of you may question my responses to you both and thats ok , I'm the least of anyone on this site .......but, ......this is my post !

You guys need to back off and consider, What the hair are you accomplishing by all this confrontation? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Green one , you still haven't told me what green 788 is about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bounty hunter ,do you think that way in loads can be screamers ?

Jim B.
 
I'm a fan of the Remington 788. I have found them to be accurate as a rule, and at least they used to be inexpensive. 700's come cheaper these days... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

My second 788 was/is a .243 win, and it had a maple looking stock that looked like it would be more at home on a pellet rifle. These were Remington's "entry level" rifle that would generally outshoot most 700's. But the stocks were very plain.

My father-in-law is a hardwood flooring master craftsman, and he was staining some maple wood green one day and I asked him how he got that green stain. "About two parts varnish and one part enamel paint," I learned. So I sanded down my 788's stock and mixed up the concoction and stained it green. The wood grain really came through. It became my "green 788," my favorite rifle to this day.

practicalrifler.jpg


That's an old picture I took after I bobbed the barrel to 18 inches. I used it that way a while and then last March I decided to have Douglas install a light target 8 twist 24" .243 win barrel. That allows me to shoot the 105 Hornady's and the 107 grain Matchkings quite well, and I've shot some very good groups at extended ranges with the rifle.

So now you know... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan
 
My thanks green man,

What a wonderful reason to take such a name .

Thank you for your contributions here. I must confess that I have only skim read your OCW material so far . Why ? well , probably cause whar t I have been doing is working so good so far and I didn't want to wrap my head around any more theories at this point .

May I suggest this , no matter what route one travels to find a " killer" load in his or her rifle , eventually he or she will run across and try all the alternate methods and use what works for them.......Yes ?

May your paths be level and your heart be full of joy,

your friend in Ar, Jim B>
 
Well, then there's ol Roy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Not smart enough to catch onto the full dose of anything. But, let me say this: I learned of the ladder test from Abinok. It took a bit of training on his part. I used it, all wrong at first, but then figgered it out for my way of thinkin'.

Then I learn of this OCW thing from Green788. Again had a hard time figuring it out. But was put through some instruction.

I think I posted something about statistical significance a while back. What I came up with is that I use both systems. I really like the round robin thing. It makes sense. You can see what's going on as you shoot instead of after you're done. Cool!

jimm, for a landscaper you're pretty good. Kind of a soothing temperament. You'll do!

Abinok, thanks for the accelerator. Gave it a shot. Seemed to accelerate the process. Liked it. Will bug sportsmans warehouse or order from one of the big guys.

Have fun shootin'. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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