Volume vs Weight measuring question

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by spdrman, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    I'm Shooting blackhorn 209 powder and decided to try and weigh the loads, blackhorn says 120 grains of volume equals 84 grains on a scale, well I loaded up 20 charge tubes at 120 volume and put them on a scale and they averaged 92 grains, loaded up 20 more charge tubes weighed at 84 grains and they are only about 105 grains in my volume measure ... question is what should I go off of? Want to shoot max loads and like the consistency of weighing each load of the volume measurements
     

  2. Sparkman10mm

    Sparkman10mm Well-Known Member

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    The BH 209 charge tube 120 gr (volume) level is equal to 125 gr(volume) in my
    TC powder measure....which equals 91 grs(weight) on my scale..
    I have settled on that charge weight with no signs of excess pressure In MY Encore.
     

  3. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Sparkman ... thought I was loosing my mind last night, I had 2 electronic scales going and 3 different volume measure out checking it with all 5, the 209 charge tubes at 120 grains where 125 grains in my other 2 measure tubes.

    How do you check for pressure signs with a muzzleloader? This for the most part is all new to me. Here in Idaho we have to use loose powder with musket or #11 caps so I can't use the blackhorn and we also have to use solid lead bullets and no sabots, I've always just shot 90 grains of FFG with a 385 grain conical.
     
  4. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    I shoot only weighed charges of BH209. There's no requirements that any manufacturer of volume measures has to meet. In other words, there's no industry standard. This presents a significant problem to shooters in some instances. Regardless of the volume measure or manufacturer, there can be significant differences in the amount different volume measurers will throw. I've had volume measures that were just down right DANGEROUS. One I had measured 30grs light. In other words, if I were going to shoot a max load of 150grs and used that measure, it actually threw the equivalent of 180grs! I've NEVER trusted them.

    There is information out there about how to properly convert any propellant to weight, and all use different ratios. I know there's one for T7 but, I can't remember it. I may have it someplace on the bench. However with Blackhorn its pretty easy, as they provide you the conversion number of .7 and it becomes mathematical and easy to convert.

    I weigh my BH209 charges to 75grs. by WEIGHT, which equals 107.1grs volume. If I can find the T7 conversion, I'll post it.
     
  5. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    I'm using blackhorn charge tubes you'd think they'd match up to the conversion better. 84 grains weighed which they say is suppose to be 120 grains volume only shows up as 105 grains in there volume tube. 120 grains in blackhorns charge tube equals 91 grains on my scales
     
  6. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Think that's bad...... now you can understand the differences when using pellets. The "casual hunter" with muzzleloaders are probably just fine shooting pellets. However if you want to shoot accurately, long range and the smallest groups possible, then one is better off IMO weighing each charge of loose propellant. I've seen rifles that a difference of just 5 grains, would make the difference between a 4" group and a 1" group.

    Just if you're going to shoot by WEIGHT, follow the manufacturer's recommendations and conversions.
     
  7. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    Played with pellets when I first got into shooting this gun went from 3 inch groups at 100 yards to all shots touching at 100 when I switched to blackhorn, last year all i did was volume measure, picked up an electronic powder dispenser this year and figured I'd shoot out a punch of charges with it, way faster than measuring each one. I had it set up for my brother and all shots where under 100 yards when he was hunting with it, headed to Utah in 2 weeks for Muleys and want to shoot it farther than that. First time I'm personally using a muzzleloader where I can use all modern stuff, trying to suck all the accuracy I can out of it
     
  8. a1smokepole

    a1smokepole Active Member

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    Presser sighs or the primer leaking around the inside of the primer or blowing the insides out of the primer if you do not have blow back you can have blowby with that load and if your gun has blowby you can get more then normal.
     
  9. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    Blow back and blow by sounds like a Ford with 150,000 miles that needs a ring job.....:D

    Seriously, I keep my charges to 100 grains volume of 209. Anymore just blows out the end as unburnt powder.

    No blowby issues here but I have a carefully shimmed pair of Accura V2's.

    I get absolutely no residue on the backside of the breech plug or the breech face, no matter how many times I fire it.

    Had them out this afternoon and sent 15 Split fires through each rifle swabbing after every 5 and no blowby-blowback. One of my friends had his TC out and was amazed.

    Just getting ready for smokepole season....

    Damn things are fun to shoot, just time consuming to prepare.
     
  10. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    Took it out today was more than happy with the groups I was getting with a fixed 1x scope, here's some groups
    200 yards
    [​IMG]
    300 yards
    [​IMG]
    And the gun
    [​IMG]
     
  11. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    GREAT shoot'n............ gun)

    Your 200yd groups are almost identical to mine but, mine are vertical. Been working on that too and I'm suspecting one of two things, either springboarding or the locking bolt. I've pretty much eliminated any springboarding, which leaves the locking lug. With groups like that at my self-imposed hunting limit, I'm leaving modifications of the locking bolt and frame alone.

    What was the drop from 200 to 300yds?
     
  12. spdrman

    spdrman Well-Known Member

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    From 100 to 200 it drops 5" from 200 to 300 it drops 21.5 inches, its really hard to shoot that far with a 1x scope I'm sure I could shoot a touch better with a higher power scope. Those where all clean bore shots too, letting the gun completely cool down then cleaning it 100%, I'm hunting for 12 days straight next week and wasn't sure how a load would do being in a gun that long so my plan is loading it when I find a shooter buck then put a stalk on him.

    How long will you guys leave a load in your gun?
     
  13. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    You didn't say what propellant you are using but I load 209 and a TMZ and leave it in there for an extended time.

    Yesterday I ran out of 209 (loaded 8 tubes) and used them all and switched to Go-Ex that a buddy had. Go-Ex (think thats it) is appreciably dirtier than 209 both in barrel fouling and difficulty of removal/cleaning.

    Never considered and bipod for an ML. They are already front heavy and the BPod makes that more so.

    I think (IMO) that a more powerful (magnification wise) scope would be better. I run a Nikon 3-9 in Realtree on mine which is actually out of character for me but Vortex don't offer a camo scope.....

    Nice groups (at 200 btw). Groups don't count however because you only get one shot......lol

    One thing to keep in mind is that at 200, a deer will get the jump on you so your shot placement changes (sometimes for the worse), one reason I never go much past 125 yards with a whitetail. besides, as the velocity degrades, the pill drops like a rock......
     
  14. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Surprising how just 10grs will make in elevation. I'm shooting 75grs. WEIGHT and with a zero at 150yds, it drops 5" at 200yds, which is my self-imposed limit with the charge and, about the max ranges where I hunt. I've bumped it up to 84grs with identical accuracy and higher (flatter) trajectory but, I'm to darn old to like the recoil any more. That was great shoot'n with just a 1x. EXCELLENT by the way. I'm just biting at the bit but, four surgeries this year, three on my eyes has put a damper on it. I should know more the 26th and my next appointment.

    Now... asking how long to leave a muzz loaded can bring a huge number of responses, some much different than others. So here's MY process with BH209.

    First, my Pro Hunter shoots the first two rounds high and right. EVERY TIME. Although the second shot will drop about an inch, they're always 4" high and 2" right. After the second shot, it zeros perfectly. Our seasons in MI, run from Nov. 15th until Jan. 1st. Regular firearm starts Nov. 15th and runs through the end of the month. Muzzleloading season starts immediately after that in the NL and there's about a week wait in the NL. However there's a doe only season until Jan. 1st. I shoot two complete rounds at my backstop on the 14th and unless I get caught in the pouring rain or fall in a creek, my muzz stays loaded until after the end of November. Because of my area, we have a few days prior to the opening of the muzz season, where I'll adjust for long range shooting on my range, then clean the rifle. Prior to the muzz opening, I repeat the process until I fill my tags or hang it up. Of course I leave my case outside while hunting to remain cold, then when through hunting, I put the rifle in a COLD case and then into the locked garage. Doing it like that, prevents the rifle from sweating and not getting that warm air. I've been doing this since I could get my hands on BH209 and I've NEVER had a single issue. There are times when the rifle may get really wet if its raining and I'll just shoot the round at the backstop, load it back up, dry the exterior and lightly oil it down. Never had a problem to date and don't expect one after all this time.

    However........ a shooter must do what he/she feels is necessary. I still know guys that although they're using BH209, discharge the rifle after every hunt, clean and reload for the next day.