Thoughts on antler restrictions

[CMP70306]

That buck in the last picture is actually starting to get mature.

... but only starting. Maybe 4.5... but no older. In 2 years, he'd really be something if he makes it.


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We found out he got killed on the last day of rifle season last year, kid across the way coming back for lunch saw him in the field chasing does and cracked him. He's probably the second biggest deer I've seen in the area and the only one bigger was killed 10 years ago. Most never live long enough to get that big whether by other hunters or poachers I don't know.

Our biggest issue in PA is generations of hunters that grew up in a time where there were twice as many hunters with buck tags as there was total bucks and 2 weeks of buck season where anything with antlers was legal. Add in decades with few to no doe tags so a buck was your only option for a deer and the prevailing attitude became shoot the first buck you see because it is probably your only chance at a deer for the year.

It's a bit better now, AR makes it so that most live to see their second birthday and overall hunter numbers are down to 850,000 from their peak of 1.3 million. This means more bucks are likely to slip through to make it additional years. But most guys that grew up shooting spikes and forkies are happy with a small 2.5 year old 6 or 8 point so it's hard for them to get past that.

A few of the younger guys in our camp have started to hold off on shooting smaller bucks but we are definitely the minority. And smaller bucks is relative, that buck I shot this year is 120, my biggest and in the top three for biggest killed in the 40+ years we've been hunting the property. After that one I'll most likely be passing anything smaller than 120 but anyone else would be happy shooting a 100" buck as that is still big for what we see for our area.

 

[SteveBurton]

I guess things are a little different for us in Clearfield Co. About 10-15 years ago, we had a few black bears and coyotes migrate into our area. Our deer numbers dropped big time. I don't know where the bears went but we haven't seen one, or sign, in at least 5 years. Don't really hear any coyotes either. Everyone I know has a bounty on their heads. Over the last 5-6 years, the deer have come back with a vengeance and are destroying acres of crops. We try to shoot as many does as we can and are seeing nice 8 pointers regularly. I got my biggest buck 5 years ago which is my avatar. The big ones are wary and that guy was shot with very little light left while he was chasing 2 does. My father-in-law shot his first 10 point 2 years ago. He's been hunting for over 60 years.

One thing I did notice this year was that the doe tags were sold out. That has never happened before. Only thing I can think of is the Amish are buying them up. I'm hoping that will keep the deer in check better.

I absolutely think AR has helped the bucks in our area. You can just look at the racks on the walls and see how they have gotten bigger. We will never have bucks like they do in Pike Co or Texas, but seeing bigger bucks lately is nice.

We do put on small drives and I would hope that I'm not one of the 'worst people' you would meet.

 

[ickes123]

I guess things are a little different for us in Clearfield Co. About 10-15 years ago, we had a few black bears and coyotes migrate into our area. Our deer numbers dropped big time. I don't know where the bears went but we haven't seen one, or sign, in at least 5 years. Don't really hear any coyotes either. Everyone I know has a bounty on their heads. Over the last 5-6 years, the deer have come back with a vengeance and are destroying acres of crops. We try to shoot as many does as we can and are seeing nice 8 pointers regularly. I got my biggest buck 5 years ago which is my avatar. The big ones are wary and that guy was shot with very little light left while he was chasing 2 does. My father-in-law shot his first 10 point 2 years ago. He's been hunting for over 60 years.

One thing I did notice this year was that the doe tags were sold out. That has never happened before. Only thing I can think of is the Amish are buying them up. I'm hoping that will keep the deer in check better.

I absolutely think AR has helped the bucks in our area. You can just look at the racks on the walls and see how they have gotten bigger. We will never have bucks like they do in Pike Co or Texas, but seeing bigger bucks lately is nice.

We do put on small drives and I would hope that I'm not one of the 'worst people' you would meet.

Drive em buddy that's hunting in the real world. To many tv watchers thinks hunting is sitting with a heater on in a box is hunting, people that don't know how to hunt do that. GOOD LUCK I CALL THEM PEOPLE TREE HUGGERS IN A BOX.

 

[bluedog69]

We do put on small drives and I would hope that I'm not one of the 'worst people' you would meet.

People that walk and try to spook deer to people ahead are fine as long as they are on property they are supposed to be on. 100% legal.

People that drive trucks, four wheelers, UTVs, and dirt bikes to try scare deer out of cover are pretty low. I am betting that is the kind of "worst people" he was refering to.

Road hunting, spot lighting, trespassing thermal using POACHERS would be on my "worst people".
Thiefs....trying to steal what is out there from everyone else.

 

[Montana'eer]

Back to antler restrictions.. What I don't understand is why on Earth someone from out of state would pay over $700 for a deer license, all the costs to get here and hunt here, and then shoot a dink mule deer buck. Not to be offensive to anyone but we call them Washington State trophy deer. We've seen it time and time again- little immature bucks in the back of trucks with out of state tags. Saw one last year outside of Plentywood MT- shot right next to the road. We stopped and looked- no drag marks to the truck, no sled around. Some Montana truck stopped and was field dressing the buck right off the road. A little fork horn. Not kidding at all. Why would anyone waste that kind of money is beyond me. Not to mention there was a young hunter in the truck, and he wasn't even outside watching the field dressing...

I know you can shoot a dink, but why?

 

[Rick Richard]

Back to antler restrictions.. What I don't understand is why on Earth someone from out of state would pay over $700 for a deer license, all the costs to get here and hunt here, and then shoot a dink mule deer buck. Not to be offensive to anyone but we call them Washington State trophy deer. We've seen it time and time again- little immature bucks in the back of trucks with out of state tags. Saw one last year outside of Plentywood MT- shot right next to the road. We stopped and looked- no drag marks to the truck, no sled around. Some Montana truck stopped and was field dressing the buck right off the road. A little fork horn. Not kidding at all. Why would anyone waste that kind of money is beyond me. Not to mention there was a young hunter in the truck, and he wasn't even outside watching the field dressing...

I know you can shoot a dink, but why?

Because you just eluded to the "WHY"…the cost. These folks think "I have spent all this money so I am going to go home with something". Not all, but some.

 

[Montana'eer]

Because you just eluded to the "WHY"…the cost. These folks think "I have spent all this money so I am going to go home with something".

In that area you could use your A tag for a buck or doe. God I hope they put restrictions in place.

 

[SteveBurton]

What I don't understand is why on Earth someone from out of state would pay over $700 for a deer license, all the costs to get here and hunt here, and then shoot a dink mule deer buck.

You answered your own question. If a person spends thousands of dollars to hunt and doesn't see a big trophy, most will shoot something smaller on the last day.
Say what you will but I do that here in AZ. Takes years to get a tag. I hope to get a chance at a big one but if I see a small 6-8 point at the end of the hunt, I'll take it. If I could shoot a doe instead just for the meat, I would.

Like I said in an earlier post, when I hunted in MD, I had a lot of opportunity to shoot deer. I let lots of 8 pointers pass waiting for a bigger one. My freezer was always full from does. Hunting in PA, not as much opportunity since I'm only there for a week. After 2-3 days, the big bucks are real wary and hard to find. It also costs a lot of $$ to fly the family in. I let a lot of smaller bucks pass but if a decent 8 presents itself, I'm most likely taking it. Sometimes I don't get a buck but I know I will be hunting again next year since a tag is over the counter. In AZ, it's **** near impossible to get drawn in areas that used to be a guaranteed tag. A lot of hunts you don't even see anything. That's a hard pill to swallow to use up all of your points, eat tag soup and start all over again. Add a lot of $$ for travel, tags and maybe a guide for an out-of-stater and I totally understand.

I guess my point is every state is different. You can't apply how your state works to everywhere. Some hunters might be used to small forkies or 6 pointers. If I saw a 140 class buck I would think it's a monster whereas someone else would think it's a baby.

 

[Montana'eer]

You answered your own question. If a person spends thousands of dollars to hunt and doesn't see a big trophy, most will shoot something smaller on the last day.
Say what you will but I do that here in AZ. Takes years to get a tag. I hope to get a chance at a big one but if I see a small 6-8 point at the end of the hunt, I'll take it. If I could shoot a doe instead just for the meat, I would.

Like I said in an earlier post, when I hunted in MD, I had a lot of opportunity to shoot deer. I let lots of 8 pointers pass waiting for a bigger one. My freezer was always full from does. Hunting in PA, not as much opportunity since I'm only there for a week. After 2-3 days, the big bucks are real wary and hard to find. It also costs a lot of $$ to fly the family in. I let a lot of smaller bucks pass but if a decent 8 presents itself, I'm most likely taking it. Sometimes I don't get a buck but I know I will be hunting again next year since a tag is over the counter. In AZ, it's **** near impossible to get drawn in areas that used to be a guaranteed tag. A lot of hunts you don't even see anything. That's a hard pill to swallow to use up all of your points, eat tag soup and start all over again. Add a lot of $$ for travel, tags and maybe a guide for an out-of-stater and I totally understand.

I guess my point is every state is different. You can't apply how your state works to everywhere. Some hunters might be used to small forkies or 6 pointers. If I saw a 140 class buck I would think it's a monster whereas someone else would think it's a baby.

To each his own. This is why I hope FWP adopts a sane mule deer management plan to include antler restrictions. Seeing all these small, and I mean SMALL fork horns getting creamed is ridiculous. These are right off the road bucks hanging with does. I used to be able to count a hundred of them on the road north to the ranch near the CN border.

My old friends from WV came out 5-6 years ago. 4 days driving 10 days hunting. 4 of us total. Hunted hard in bad weather near zero temps. It was hard work to put boots down, nail down a decent wall hanger and then hunt him. Had to wait for him to cross the other side of a fence. Finally they got him.

The other guy passed on a ton of WST sized deer. He was giving up hope on what he wanted - A solid representation of a western mule deer. He got it on the last day. However he was totally content (both of them were) to go home empty handed. In fact this was the smallest sized buck taken out of 4 of us. I shot a camp doe 2 days into the trip so I could hang back and keep the camper going and fix chops and a roast.

 

[hesse]

I don't understand this line of thinking. We have been going on 24 years of a 4 point on one side rule. If you don't have time to see the rack you don't shoot. Simple.

Back to antler restrictions.. What I don't understand is why on Earth someone from out of state would pay over $700 for a deer license, all the costs to get here and hunt here, and then shoot a dink mule deer buck. Not to be offensive to anyone but we call them Washington State trophy deer. We've seen it time and time again- little immature bucks in the back of trucks with out of state tags. Saw one last year outside of Plentywood MT- shot right next to the road. We stopped and looked- no drag marks to the truck, no sled around. Some Montana truck stopped and was field dressing the buck right off the road. A little fork horn. Not kidding at all. Why would anyone waste that kind of money is beyond me. Not to mention there was a young hunter in the truck, and he wasn't even outside watching the field dressing...

I know you can shoot a dink, but why?

You answered your own question they spent all this money to go out of state they don't want to go back home with nothing and have to hear from the significant other that you spent all that money and got nothing. Me I would rather shoot nothing

 

[SteveBurton]

I'm glad your friends had a great hunting trip and that is an awesome buck. Your idea of small is relative. My avatar is the biggest buck I have ever seen and I was lucky enough to get him. He is tiny compared to that mule deer your buddy got. What you think is a 'dink' might be a big deer to someone that has never hunted your state. Do you have any pictures of small deer you can share for my education?

With that said, I get it. It would probably be the same with someone shooting a spike or small fork horn in my area when they are used to hunting Sitka deer.

I think we are in agreement that AR works. You would have hunters shooting 4x4s or bigger. PA is at least 3 on 1 side not including brow tine so a 7 pointer is the smallest you can legally shoot. (3x2) I don't know how AR would go over in AZ. It's already hard enough to get drawn.

 

[Montana'eer]

You answered your own question they spent all this money to go out of state they don't want to go back home with nothing and have to hear from the significant other that you spent all that money and got nothing. Me I would rather shoot nothing

I would too. This year we saw two quality deer, one muley and one whitetail. Two of us looked over the mule deer, but he was at or just past his ears, tall, good forks- solid 4x4 small eyegards. We both have taken deer like that so we passed. The whitetail was 6 minutes before end of shooting light and he was a nice buck. He trotted a few yards- hind leg up in the air. He'd been shot. Tried to line up on him but it was just too dark. We hunted for him the next morning but never found him. We saw many, many up and coming bucks, mainly muley's.

I came home and went to a favorite whitetail spot and dropped a doe on Thanksgiving.

Hey -I run into a few Yinzers up where I hunt. Same crew- stop by every year. Stand-up guy and his son. They've taken quality deer up there. And shoot pheasants. Good hunters.

 

[Montana'eer]

I'm glad your friends had a great hunting trip and that is an awesome buck. Your idea of small is relative. My avatar is the biggest buck I have ever seen and I was lucky enough to get him. He is tiny compared to that mule deer your buddy got. What you think is a 'dink' might be a big deer to someone that has never hunted your state. Do you have any pictures of small deer you can share for my education?

With that said, I get it. It would probably be the same with someone shooting a spike or small fork horn in my area when they are used to hunting Sitka deer.

I think we are in agreement that AR works. You would have hunters shooting 4x4s or bigger. PA is at least 3 on 1 side not including brow tine so a 7 pointer is the smallest you can legally shoot. (3x2) I don't know how AR would go over in AZ. It's already hard enough to get drawn.

Dinks. Tiny forky horns. I've not seen a single buck at or past ears. We go into Glasgow to the processor on down days and see them. Even the processors laugh and say "WST Bucks". My goose and duck hunting buddy works at the FWP office in Glasgow. They bring them in for CWD sampling. I'll get off the topic because it is a SORE SORE spot for all of us that hunt muley's, especially NE Montana.

 

[CMP70306]

Drive em buddy that's hunting in the real world. To many tv watchers thinks hunting is sitting with a heater on in a box is hunting, people that don't know how to hunt do that. GOOD LUCK I CALL THEM PEOPLE TREE HUGGERS IN A BOX.

I've hunted in a box blind part of the season the past two years, honestly I like the tree stand more. In one hand the box helps cover my movements but on the other hand it has tons of blind spots that make it way easier to miss deer.

The stands came with the property so I've sat in them just to see where the deer move so I can place tree stands in better locations. We also do still hunting and drives so we do a bit of everything.

I'm glad your friends had a great hunting trip and that is an awesome buck. Your idea of small is relative. My avatar is the biggest buck I have ever seen and I was lucky enough to get him. He is tiny compared to that mule deer your buddy got. What you think is a 'dink' might be a big deer to someone that has never hunted your state. Do you have any pictures of small deer you can share for my education?

With that said, I get it. It would probably be the same with someone shooting a spike or small fork horn in my area when they are used to hunting Sitka deer.

I think we are in agreement that AR works. You would have hunters shooting 4x4s or bigger. PA is at least 3 on 1 side not including brow tine so a 7 pointer is the smallest you can legally shoot. (3x2) I don't know how AR would go over in AZ. It's already hard enough to get drawn.

Just to clarify only part of the state around Pittsburgh is 3 up, the rest of the state includes the browtine as a point so a 5 is technically the smallest. That being said I did see several bucks on camera this year that were a spike on one side and a small y with a browtine on the other.