The Claw

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by gamehauler, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. gamehauler

    gamehauler Well-Known Member

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    The Gun Claw

    Has any one tried out this product.
    It looks like a pretty darn good idea
    but they sure are proud of it.

    The reviews I have read seam to feel that unless
    you have the VERY top of the line tripod and head
    that with the weight of a rifle you are getting some
    movement between the mounting plate and head.
    This is true of good heads that will hold a spotting
    scope very well without movement.

    Mike
     
  2. Southpaw

    Southpaw Well-Known Member

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    I think your right, they are very proud of that. I often carry my tripod with me. I have a plate on my spotting scope and my camera. Last year I bought a Stoney Point replacement V rest at Sportsman's Warehouse for about 12 bucks and stopped by the camera shop on the way home and picked up another mount plate and screwed it on. Works great.

    The result is that I have a very stable rest on my tripod for about 35 bucks.

    Southpaw
     

  3. bubbas

    bubbas Member

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    Hello all,
    First off, shooting equipment is very personalized and varying. Everyone has their favorite caliber or make of gun. Why do some swear by Remington while others swear by Weatherby, Sako, Browning, etc? Even then, some will not shoot stock firearms but rather demand custom. In most cases, their choice is largely based on their own anecdotal experience in the field. Well, shooting supports are the same. Many have had great success with many different types of shooting rests and aids. After all, if the shooting support worked once then why wouldn’t the same support work again? The Claw was born because we, as very demanding hunters, felt there was a need in the field for this type of shooting aid and the wide spectrum of benefits it affords the hunter under unpredictable hunting conditions. I am not going to breakdown every advantage of The Claw because there are too many to discuss each one on this forum. This post is long enough as it is..lol. However, there is a list of these benefits on the website and I highly encourage people to review this list and contemplate how each of those advantages could help them in a hunting situation. I am most certain that each of you have had a situation where you were not able to harvest an animal but would have been able to if you could have eliminated the restricting factor of your current setup.
    As a quick example, I guided a relative on a coues deer hunt this last weekend. Bradley is 15 yrs old. He was shooting a 300 win mag with a 5 power fixed Leopold scope. This respectable (75”) buck stepped out at 100 yds broadside. I informed him that we could do better being only the second day of their time in the field and he elected to pass the buck. Well the buck started off across the hill side trotting up and down cuts with his flag up, etc. In the meantime, Bradley got an itchy finger and couldn’t stand letting the buck go. I said, “hey, it is your tag and if you would enjoy taking that buck you should”. So I quickly set him up on The Claw. The buck was still traversing rapidly through the steep terrain as many of you have witnessed before. At 400 yds (396) the buck was going to crest to the point where a shot was no longer possible. The buck stopped for a split second where Bradley was able to make a great shot on the buck. He was able to follow that buck with the crosshairs on his body for a good 100 yds while the buck weaved in and out of brush. The second the buck stopped he was steady and able to shoot on a moments notice due to The Claw. If you haven’t experienced panning the crosshairs with this set-up you are missing out! Now I will argue that he would not have been able to kill that buck and lost out on a great experience if not for The Claw. If he was set up on a bipod or shooting sticks it would have been very difficult to impossible to execute the shot but in this case it was very easy. That is just a recent example. There is another example where Cody Nicholson harvested a 416” gross bull this year in Arizona with his muzzleloader. He followed his bull through the thick junipers while the bull tried to stay with all his cows. It was a good 10 minutes of waiting that bull out before he could make the shot. When the bull finally stepped out to present a clear shot he was dead locked on the bull. A quick one shot kill followed. What other set up allows you to do this? We are unaware of one. If it were me as a consumer The Claw would be worth that advantage right there but that is only one of many.
    I think a lot of people due to the appearance of the set up in pictures felt that there would be absolutely no movement in the set up. While The Claw is very rock solid it still requires the operator to know how to shoot with it. It is unlike any other on the market. With bipods or shooting sticks mounted on the for-end of the rifle the operator has to support the butt of the rifle for it to work. This means that the set up is only as stable as the rear support which in the traditional way is the operator’s shoulder/back/arm muscles. This is not very stable. What many now do to overcome this weaker position is to place shooting sticks under the butt of the rifle. This is a great method and one we used in the past. It does provide a great rock solid shooting platform. However, it is not without its limitations also. Of Course prone is the traditional king of stable shooting positions but just not possible to shoot from in many hunting situations. Simply your opportunities to shoot prone are very limited.
    Think about this. If you mount your rifle in The Claw on the tripod it absolutely, positively will not even slightly move….Absolute rest! Contrary to what was mentioned earlier the heavier guns do not make the tripod move more but it is the opposite. Lighter objects provide for more movement because when you put your shoulder behind the rifle it is easier to create movement on a light object. This is why bench rest shooters shoot as heavy as a rifle as they can get away with. It’s why Shaquile Oneal can’t shoot free throws also! The only thing that can move the crosshairs when mounted in The Claw is a force to the rifle. So theoretically, if you could shoot the rifle without putting your shoulder into it then your crosshair will not move AT ALL. While we obviously do not recommend shooting without your shoulder behind the rifle you can learn to shoot with very light pressure in the stock. Much like when shooting a bow, your bow hand should be very relaxed, gripping the bow as lightly as possible. No other set up will allow you to do this in this way. When you learn to shoot relaxed like this then the set up is phenomenal. When I spoke with Amanda she had not shot with The Claw yet, only looked through it without me explaining these concepts. Secondly, she was comparing the stability of The Claw to her current set up where she has shooting sticks under the butt of her rifle. She was not comparing apples to apples. If you placed shooting sticks under the butt of a rifle clamped in The Claw it is more stable then what she is currently using. However, a rear support is not needed with The Claw if you practice proper shooting techniques. Now before you argue against this please consider the fact that we have done extensive product testing with very experienced shooters and as you are seeing with pictures…the proof is in the pudding. The hunters using The Claw already are some of the most successful and experienced hunters in the industry. They have nothing to gain by using and supporting The Claw and do not compromise their hunting opportunities under any circumstances. Again, as Amanda stated, if you just can’t get comfortable with the thought of a “light shoulder” behind the butt of the gun you can do as done in the past and place shooting sticks under the butt of the gun to eliminate any remaining “micro” movement. This provides you the same or better feel upon shot as before but you gain all the other benefits of The Claw under all shooting conditions when you don’t have time to place sticks under the butt of the rifle. Referring back to Bradley’s hunt, there was not even close to enough time to set up sticks under the butt of the gun and you can’t pan across a hill side to the same degree with other set ups. Why limit your shot opportunities? The Claw simply is the most versatile shooting aid available and nothing, including other setups mentioned in other posts, will give you all the advantages the Claw does and the stability of The Claw can equal and surpass them all.
    Some of you will naturally disagree with these points because you will defend your current set up. I am not saying what you are using is inferior and you shouldn’t use it. If you are having great success with your current set up and you haven’t experienced limits in shot opportunities then by all means you should not spend any money on The Claw. We just feel you will be missing out if you don’t ever experience its potential, which leads me to my next point. Cost has been a big concern of many posters. Let me first say that my partner and I started fabricating this product due to a need and opportunity we saw for hunters. We were going to be using The Claw ourselves and those that we had doing product testing for us realized its huge potential. Now there is a lot of costs and work behind making The Claw so naturally we have to treat this like a business. With all businesses they are run not to loose money, but fortunately I have a career that takes up most of my life and provides us with all that we need so we tried not to price the unit in a way to take advantage of others. Having said that, one of the reasons that this product took so long to make it to the market was because we tried endlessly to find a manufacturer that could make the units at a cost that was reasonable and yet still retain the integrity of the product design. We spoke with MANY manufacturers and came up with the lowest cost we could. We do not feel that an integral piece of your shooting arsenal should be compromised due to financial reasons. Also, unfortunately the first wave of product was fabricated before this recent downturn in the economy. Everything, including machinist fees was inflated along with the inflated market, we have since learned. The current price was established based on our high costs along with comparing The Claw to other products on the market and what it had to offer. We felt that considering these factors the current price was reasonable. We sincerely realize that at this price it makes it very difficult for many to afford without much sacrifice. We promise that if there is an opportunity in the future to make and offer The Claw at a lower cost WHILE maintaining its quality we will transfer those savings over to the consumer. In the meantime, all we can say is that we will assure you that if you buy the product that we will stand behind its effectiveness and we feel that it will open many doors that you otherwise wouldn’t have. As a famous commercial says.....hunting success, priceless! To us the difference between success and failure is worth the price of The Claw.
    If you have any questions about the use or effectiveness of The Claw please contact us. Both Jay and I would love to discuss it with you or even if it’s just about hunting in general give us a call. We can always find time for that, right!

    Dr. Cade Smith
    www.thegunclaw.com
     
  4. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Dr. Cade:

    I read your entire post and appreciate you innovativeness.

    Being one of the "cobble up" fellas around here (Translation: many of my creations are flops:D) The concern that comes to mind regarding the Claw is:

    With a highly tuned heavy (12#) long barreled (balance under chamber) LRH (all shots beyond 600 yds) rifle what about the tightness of the Claw (squeezing the stock against the action) affecting point of impact vs bipod/pedestal rest w/rear bag tuning?

    For example this one designed for prone shooting from an ambush position selected to permit prone shots off of a 9" bipod.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. bubbas

    bubbas Member

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    Roy,
    I love that design, although it may be a tough one to patent..lol. Your question about The Claw placing pressure anywhere along the chamber or barrel length possibly affecting accuracy, particularly at longer distances, is a very valid one. This was our first thought as well and thus an intensive point of testing. Our results, and the results of many experienced long range shooters, was that The Claw did NOT change the point of impact of the bullet. You can shoot a group 0f 4 shots alternating shots with and without The Claw attached and you will shoot the same group as shooting all 4 shots with or without The Claw. Secondly, you can establish and confirm your drop chart off of a bench and then reproduce the same results shooting off The Claw. If this was not the case we would not be using and recommending The Claw because our hunting methods revolve around most accurate shooting. That is why The Claw is so exciting because you can shoot those long range shots (to whatever yardage you are equiped and comfortable with) as previously done but now can do it under whatever shooting conditions present. We assure you this is the case.

    Let me expound on this point. First, we recommend attaching The Claw under the action of the rifle in most cases as this is close to the balancing point on most rifles. When The Claw is placed at the balance point its benefits are maximized such as locking the crosshairs on target, etc. In this case, even theoretically, the worry of pressure changes is eliminated. What we have found under many testings is that even when you attach The Claw under the chamber or anywhere under the stock/barrel, which is necessary with a barrel heavy rifle, that there is ZERO point of impact change. This is confirmed well past 1000 yds.

    The reason for this is that first it would take an extreme amount of clamping force to clamp the chamber enough to change the internal ballistics/pressure characteristics of the cartridge. We have tested the clamping action of The Claw at this juncture and have not been able to clamp at a force to achieve this negative result. Let me clarify that we were clamping at a force that is way beyond what is necessary to attach The Claw securely and appropriately. In addition, it is not conceivable that an operator can even torque and then lock the cam lever handles to achieve the negative force we are talking about. The cam levers are designed at a pitch that they will lock over at the appropriate locking force. This is the same we have found when clamping along the stock under a barrel. We have tested rifles/barrels that were stock, resin and glass bedded, and free floating and under all those scenarios we were not able to create a change in point of impact.

    So in summary, The Claw has ZERO change in bullet impact when attached to a rifle. This means you can have extreme confidence in the rifle producing the same results when shooting with The Claw under hunting conditions as you achieve when you shoot off a bench!
     
  6. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    bubbas,

    Thank you for the response.

    You have covered all the bases.

    I'll put one in the budget for next year.

    I'm sure it will be a pleasure to do business with you.
     
  7. bubbas

    bubbas Member

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    Roy,
    It was my pleasure. Like I said in the earlier post, anytime you want to call please don't hesitate and it doesn't have to be strictly about The Claw. Also, check back at the website frequently because we have a lot of things to add such as more demo's and live hunt clips. Unfortunately (or fortunately in this economy) I have another job which demands most of my time so in these early moments getting stuff uploaded takes some time but bare with us.

    We have a booth at the Western Hunting Expo in February in SLC so come by if planning on going. We plan on having a demo and hunting video ready by that time which will come with the purchase of a Claw. It will demonstrate the intricacies of shooting The Claw to fully maximize its benefits. Of course I am biased but.....it is a blast to shoot off of!

    What part of Idaho do you live in?
     
  8. yobuck

    yobuck Well-Known Member

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    it would appear that this is a clamp device attached at the balance point of the rifle.
    it would also appear that it would function as well as the quality of the tripod its mounted on.
    assuming the first shot is all that is needed, all is well. but how about follow up shots? after all that happens in the real world.
    what happens with recoil?
    what absorbs it?
    i would assume the tripod?
    that means movement, especially with heavy recoil rifles dosent it?
    after all its locked in there, no bags or other devices to slide on, am i correct?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  9. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    As of the wee hours of 2009 I am in Blackfoot.

    However, as of this Saturday evening I'll be in Los Alamos NM for quite a few months.

    I'll be board out of my mind until I get settled and get some shooting stuff down there.

    My wife will join me in a month or so. It'll be a well earned vacation for her and for me a change is as good as a rest.

    I'll be in contact.
     
  10. bubbas

    bubbas Member

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    Yobuck,
    The Claw actually excels in the multiple shot arena. In fact, if you go to the website, go to the photos/videos section. In there you can click on both video to give you an idea on both recoil and multiple shots.
    When you attach The Claw you are in effect adding the weight of the tripod to you rifle. As you well know adding weight to a rifle reduces recoil. Assuming the weight of the average tripod is in the 3-8 lb range that is helping to reduce recoil dramatically without actually having to carry a heavier rifle in the field. Not only this but there is also a "fulcruming" effect where in order for the rifle to move backwards upon the shot, it has to rock the tripod backwards which takes away recoil because the legs have drag on the ground. The net effect is significantly reduced recoil. I would say a 300 ultra mag, which I shoot, feels like a .270. The reduction in recoil actually improves your multiple shot accuracy because you can reaquire your target faster with less rifle movement upon the shot. Both of these points are well illustrated in the demo videos. Now it must be fairly stated that in the demo the rifle used is a .223 so it is not on the scale for which we are referring to but the concepts still apply, just at a different scale.

    Now, I believe you were also wondering what the possible negative effects may be to the tripod suggesting that the tripod is absorbing all this energy from the shot. While the tripod most certainly absorbs an energy it is at a very small amount. A small enough amount where there have been no negative effects. We have tripods (our own personal tripods) which we have shot hundreds of rounds off of with not one apparent ounce of damage.

    This can be attributed to two factors. First, the major component of energy from the shot is driving backwards like in any situation. Your shoulder is still there to absorb some of this energy although reduced. Secondly, the entire weight and the fulcruming effect of the tripod reduces any one part of the tripod from absorbing much energy. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, The attachment of The Claw to the tripod is NOT Static. The attachment interface is a textured rubber (The Claw) to resin/wood (the stock). Now when you attach the Claw you will not be able to even slightly move it with your hand. It feels like it is machined into the stock. However, on a microscopic level, upon the shot there is absorbtion/movement within the rubber siding of The Claw. Much like the effects of the recoil and silencing properties of the SIMS products. Or another analogy, like the effects of a rubber football mouthpiece covering the teeth upon a force to the jaw.

    This is why I say shooting off of The Claw is such a joy to shoot...it really is. I feel like I am shooting a 50 cal off of the back of a Hum V!

    I hope this answers your questions Yobuck
     
  11. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    Here is my experience. I can shoot with shooting sticks out to 400 yrds and be really accurate. The closer I get to 400 yards I really like to have my back against something. I also really like to have a good seating position so I can have my elbow on my knee and stabilize my upper body. I have noticed that this is why I can't shoot past 400 yards or so. Its that upper body movement that starts to really affect the accuracy of the rest. I would assume that the claw would have the same problem but probably be a little more stable than shooting sticks.

    I would like to here what a 3 shot group is like from the claw verses prone at 1k or even 600yrds.
     
  12. bubbas

    bubbas Member

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    Cruizin,
    I think your observation and experience correct and is the same as for everyone. You are right, it is your postural and arm muscles that start to introduce the movements which results in a miss. That's why the prone position is the time tested shooting position, especially for long range. This is not a problem when you are target shooting under controlled conditions. However when in a hunting situation, finding a place to shoot from prone expecially in an undetermined and quick moment can be daunting to impossible. This is what is unique to The Claw, making it different than your standard shooting sticks or stock mounted bipod. It not only supports the rifle but actually will hold it in place for you so you don't have to support the butt of the rifle with your shoulder (the main, not only,interface where human error gets introduced). Instead you can learn to just have the "presence" of your shoulder behind the butt of rifle and eliminate most, if not all, of the movement created by your postural and arm muscles. Please see my quotes from my earlier post.

    "Think about this. If you mount your rifle in The Claw on the tripod it absolutely, positively will not even slightly move….Absolute rest! Contrary to what was mentioned earlier the heavier guns do not make the tripod move more but it is the opposite. Lighter objects provide for more movement because when you put your shoulder behind the rifle it is easier to create movement on a light object. This is why bench rest shooters shoot as heavy as a rifle as they can get away with. It’s why Shaquile Oneal can’t shoot free throws also! The only thing that can move the crosshairs when mounted in The Claw is a force to the rifle. So theoretically, if you could shoot the rifle without putting your shoulder into it then your crosshair will not move AT ALL. While we obviously do not recommend shooting without your shoulder behind the rifle you can learn to shoot with very light pressure in the stock. Much like when shooting a bow, your bow hand should be very relaxed, gripping the bow as lightly as possible. No other set up will allow you to do this in this way. When you learn to shoot relaxed like this then the set up is phenomenal."................"if you just can’t get comfortable with the thought of a “light shoulder” behind the butt of the gun you can do as done in the past and place shooting sticks under the butt of the gun to eliminate any remaining “micro” movement. This provides you the same or better feel upon shot as before but you gain all the other benefits of The Claw under all shooting conditions when you don’t have time to place sticks under the butt of the rifle."
     
  13. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    well I might consider it if you could hit a dinner plate at 1k with it. Can you? What about others? What is the furthest shot taken with it? What were you aiming at? How big was the target? Did you hit it? 180 bucks is a lot of money considering my shooting sticks pretty much do the same thing.
     
  14. zuba

    zuba Well-Known Member

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    Roy, you must be pretty quick with your camera. I dont think I could throw my gun up in the air, take a picture and catch it before it hits the ground, Thats talent!