Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

[barnesuser28]

I am 95% sure this bullet tumble INSIDE the elk, that would be why it is flattened and you recovered it inside the animal. Either way........


Riley

 

[Scot E]

Tumbling of this bullet is out of the question. the entrance hole was the exact diameter of this bullet, and if the bullet tumbled i doubt i would have hit my target perfectly as i did at 626 yards... and also why would just this bullet tumble if i stated all my exact velocities ect?? I havent ever had a problem with my bullets tumbling. and i think the chances of this bullet tumbling and hitting the hide exactly on the nose or the rear end of the bullet is pretty slim.

Eric, I am not offended at anything you have said on here, some other posts I am! Such as being called a liar ect., this will be some good information and figure out the problem to better the bullet.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was talking about tumbling insdie the body cavity.

Scot E.

 

[Broz]

So Broz, now your calling me a liar and saying i didnt shoot an elk with this bullet? .

No, not at all. Lets read again what I said. Here it is again copied and pasted.

"Even though I have never had an issue with over 100 kills I was open minded. But you guys talking trash has discredited your own stories. This is why I want to see for myself. I am still willing to believe you, but am asking to see your proof. Not just a couple bullets that are tarnished and look like they were dug out of a dirt bank after they laid there long enough to corrode. Many of us that have had great success with Bergers and have posted pics of the animals, wound channels, destroyed vitals etc. So why would you not want to support your experiences with your video's ?"

Now where did I call anyone a Liar. I just asked to see the videos as proof. I feel when you started talking the trash you needed to supply it just like we all do with successful results. I have dug up many bullets and also recovered many from animals. The only ones that looked like yours are ones I have dug out of dirt that were subsonic. This does not mean I am calling you a liar, it only means I have never recovered a bullet from an animal that looked like yours. So I asked for proof to what you two were saying to support your field experiences. Plus since they do look like the subsonic bullets I recovered isn't that data that could be useful?

If you read this as me calling you a liar, I apologize. But if you want to come on here and talk like you did in the later posts, and make claims, then I think you surely realize you need to answer questions. I think that goes for you two and anyone else.

I have done quite a bit of testing and I feel I have something to bring to the table and possibly help you figure out your problems. But if you would rather I didn't post on your thread that is fine I will stop. It seemed to me at the first of this thread you were wanting help figuring out the problem. Is that wrong?

Also you posted this earlier.


"Ya that is interesting why the 215's are so much better than the 210's hmmm????"

I have had great success with both the 210's and the 215's but they are not even close to the same bullet. There is a lot more to consider than 5 gr of weight. That is why I was testing them. The 5 gr of weight is almost nothing, but the other differences sure do make them perform differently. But I won't go into that in this thread as it was not about a 30 cal VLD's or Hybrids anyway.

So was that post of yours above a crack at me for using them, posting my results and liking them? I guess if you felt I was calling you a Liar maybe I should feel that you took a shot at me?

Anyway it is up to you if you do not want my help. Your call as this is your thread.

Oh and by the way. When we talk about bullet tumbling it would be after it was in the elk. A bullet that does not expand will often tumble, and often go off path. I have seen it many times with other brands of less expansive bullets at long range.

Jeff

 

[bullridety]

The 338 cal. did hit dirt but the 7mm never has touched the ground. I did want an explanation of this bullet and why they only work excellent sometimes....i guess we will see what Eric has to bring back for results.

 

[WildRose]

The 338 cal. did hit dirt but the 7mm never has touched the ground. I did want an explanation of this bullet and why they only work excellent sometimes....i guess we will see what Eric has to bring back for results.

No bullet performs exactly as you wish they would every time.

There are simply too many factors involved.

There will always be some bullets of any make or weight that do not expand.

There will always be some bullets of any make or weight that shell out completely or blow up unexpectedly.

No make or weight of bullet will give you identical results at all velocities and ranges either.

Like I said though, while I'm personally not sold on the Bergers as a hunting bullet and generally shoot the Sirocco, Interbond, or Accubond for larger game and shoot the Siroccos and Amaxes more often than not on coyotes and other varmints, most people that are shooting the Bergers are happy with their results and understand that with any open tipped bullet you are occasionally going to get some that tumble instead of open and some that shatter on impact the first time they strike bone.

It's not like these are programmable projectiles that can adjust to every variable we encounter when hunting.

No one can guarantee their bullets will perform "properly" 100% of the time. It simply cannot be done.

 

[Eric Stecker]

For the sake of clarity, we are pursuing the testing of the closed tips first. This will take some time so please don't expect answers soon. When we do get results they will be posted on this thread.

I like to troubleshoot things by going after what is believed to be the most likely cause and then work our way backwards one potential cause at a time as we eliminate each as the root cause. I've found this to be a very successful approach, but it takes time so I request your patience.

I mention this method also because even though I know that there are several factors that can cause various results I can only affect the bullet. So this is where we will focus our testing. One of two things will happen when this testing is done. We will either find the issue with the bullet that creates this result and address it or we will eliminate the bullet as the root cause.

Either result is fine with me since we will be able to provide answers that will help shooters resolve the situation.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Joe King]

Tumbling of this bullet is out of the question. the entrance hole was the exact diameter of this bullet, and if the bullet tumbled i doubt i would have hit my target perfectly as i did at 626 yards... and also why would just this bullet tumble if i stated all my exact velocities ect?? I havent ever had a problem with my bullets tumbling. and i think the chances of this bullet tumbling and hitting the hide exactly on the nose or the rear end of the bullet is pretty slim.

Eric, I am not offended at anything you have said on here, some other posts I am! Such as being called a liar ect., this will be some good information and figure out the problem to better the bullet.

I think what folks are referring to with tumbling is, the bullet tumbled after impact, obviously you called and made a pretty long shot, which you can't do with an unstable bullet as the flight path is unpredictable.

In Broz's defense I don't believe that he's intending to call you a liar but rather making an attempt to get as much data out there as possible to help determine the cause of your results. Though I don't know the man personally I do believe that what you see in posts on a forum such this gives a pretty good indication as the type of person that poster is, on that I'm pretty certain Jeff is a strait forward person who doesn't mean to offend, but just help. So maybe try to look at it from that angle.

Eric I am just simply impressed with the length you go to resolve possible issues with your products. Hats off to you.

 

[azsugarbear]

Hey broz,

If you are still following this thread.....I sent you a PM a few days back.

 

[timeless61]

question for everyone here....

on a new Berger 338 OTM 300 grain, how far down the open tip can you push a pin or something similar?

I tried that on 50 of mine the other night, none were closed, but some went in a 16th of an inch, most around an 8th, if that, nothing more than an 8th.

is this normal? or should it go in further than this?

thanks,

 

[toddc]

Ok broz won't scream bs? I will.
I've never seen a used berger that did'nt come outa the ground look like that.
I'm not callin anyone a liar but I've shot control for 8 years and berger long before it was ok to use them on game. In the thousands of dead bergerized bodies I've seen none looked like that except when outa steam.
A 180 ANYTHING that won't pass a chest cavity while not expanded seems suspect.
Also a bear that was nicked at 1150? Doesn't prove much to me except a possible ax to grind.
Kinda amazes me the lack of knowledge about picking a bullet. Yeah I've seen 1000s of critters die but this isnt rocket science. #1 No bullet is perfect 100% #2 Anything can happen at any time (maybe the accounts are accurate I'll beleive anything.
The whole deal though cracks me up. Every day there is some thread about this bullet sux and that one doesnt. This shows that the people posting this stuff havent been around much. Any bullet can work like a death ray or a flop. just depends what day it was.
Tough cow elk. Hit perfectly(therefore has no lung integrity and a collapsing diaphrgm) and just out walking around. HMMMM.
I guide a lot of badass niteforce sendero totin hombres and I have learned the reason for all the badass eqipment......someone to blame besides the trigger man when something comes up.

 

[cowboy]

Here "hold my beer. I need to get some popcorn."
Got a feeling this is gonna get interesting now.

 

[toddc]

Here is another pic of the 7mm 180 VLD. it is opened at the tip and i can stick the staple about 1/4" in before i bottom out. However im not sure if this bullet had an enclosed tip before i shot it because i wasnt ever aware of something going to happen like this. The 338 bullet was immediately recovered after the shot this spring, it was a definite hit on the bear and the bullet has been in the ash tray of a truck since this spring until last week.

So.......now we have a bullet (that looks incredibly similar to long range skippers) that was found in an elk.....and the OPEN hollow point is not full of meat or whatever? Oh bergers suck so bad the meat wont go in the hole? HMMMMM I wonder how the tip didnt fill with blood while laying there against the hide with MS. ELK skippin all over hither and yon.
Once again please stop selling elk kevlar jackets people!
Problem is when people start wanting to prove something they dont realize that somewhere out there is someone who has been there and done that and will recognize when 2+2=5

 

[WildRose]

So.......now we have a bullet (that looks incredibly similar to long range skippers) that was found in an elk.....and the OPEN hollow point is not full of meat or whatever? Oh bergers suck so bad the meat wont go in the hole? HMMMMM I wonder how the tip didnt fill with blood while laying there against the hide with MS. ELK skippin all over hither and yon.
Once again please stop selling elk kevlar jackets people!
Problem is when people start wanting to prove something they dont realize that somewhere out there is someone who has been there and done that and will recognize when 2+2=5

Some people seem to want miracles rather than bullets.

You punch one of these bullets through the shoulders and spine and whether they expand or not the animal is DRT. The only exception to that would be if the bullet flat exploded as soon as it strikes the target and doesn't penetrate at all. Unless you are shooting them at warp nine and at close range that possibility is negligible at best.

No amount of engineering and quality control at the factory is going to make up for poor shot placement.

 

[Joe King]