Henson Aluminum Tipped Bullet Testing

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James,

I agree that the sampling which I asked for was statistically thin.

I would have asked for more, but the dialogue has not given me much of an expectation that more was avaliable. I actually have no problem giving the benefit of a doubt... unless a pattern emerges which weighs in against the presumption.

In any case, you really have supplied the answer to my question.

Best,
Noel
 
Fiftydriver,

A projectile's center of gravity always follows the actual line of trajectory.

Bryan is suggesting exactly what you are hypothesizing... that an excessive aft CG is causing lift through nose inclination forward of the CG.

Best,
Noel
 
Fiftydriver,

A projectile's center of gravity always follows the actual line of trajectory.

Bryan is suggesting exactly what you are hypothesizing... that an excessive aft CG is causing lift through nose inclination forward of the CG.

Best,
Noel

According to Sierra, or at least the way I believe them to claim, a bullet's center of gravity does not always follow the exact line of the trajectory. For normal circumstances AND best results the bullet's center follows the actual trajectory.
 
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Has anyone considered that perhaps the use of the aluminum tip to shift the center of gravity to the rear of the bullet more then a conventional match HP may have something to do with the increase in BC? IT really does not shift the center of gravity all that much but it does greatly increase bullet length without adding much weight at all.

I have wondered this same thing.

I also have wondered what the true specific gravity is adding the aluminum to the mix. Aluminum will bring this down a bit.


James,

How about a tungsten tip? :)

That would be sure fire way to settle this argument. Argument is the wrong word here but you get it.

Also I have theorized in the past that if you increased the weight in the front, it MAY help get through the transonic wall a bit better instead of tumbling out of control.

Just some food for thought. I know tungsten is expensive AND hard to work with so it may not be worth it.
 
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Noel, James, I thought I had read the entire (length thread), but didn't see where any downrange velocities where listed (maybe in a different thread?). That is the only way that the downrange energy can really be calculated (correct?).

In my reading of this thread, I think the data presented regarding the BC of the 265gr bullets is around .9 or .91. The .5moa less winddrift at 928yds than the SMK's would match that value very closely according to my Exbal calculations.

I've learned a lot reading this thread. It has become very apparent to me that calculating a BC by measured drop data is a task that is prone to small errors that can radically affect the results. Even the thickness of the scopes reticle and where it is held on the aimpoint can add a tremendous amount of error.

I think that along with the bullet drop data, velocity drop data would shed a ton of light on this entire discussion. Even if 1/2 the bullets 'sneak' through a cronograph at longer distances (I still have no comprehension of how this can be), I would think the other 1/2 would yield some valid data. I personally hope that the actual BC is .9 or higher and that velocity is not being shed by some 'lift affect'.

AJ

AJ,

On the Gen Is, we got some mid range numbers and they matched up with the drops for those bullets.

However, Dr Ken advised us to shoot the drops and work backwards.

We did nick the chronograph several times when taking initial measurement and that gives the instrument a headache...

I suspect that bryan will use some acoustic targets and get some down range data if all his instruments are properly calibrated and certified.

James
 
ME,

I just got off of the telephone with Sierra. I am not certain the represenative understood my question, because he went into an explaination of nose precession. When I attempted clarification, he stated that it is the nose tip through which trajectory is traced.

I know this is incorrect, and I will find documentation for you. The Sierra represenative could not provide a reference either.

This link is good, and may even spell out the answer. I know it will contradict the answer which I was given.

Best,
Noel

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm-11k
 
Noel,

There is no question that a projectiles COG will always fallow its trajectory line, or at least be very close. I think you are missing my point.

If you take a bullet with the nose up, it has been tested and proven in some cases that its trajectory will be flatter then a bullet with a "nose on" trajectory line.

In both trajectories, the bullets center of gravity will fallow the trajectory line or at least be very close, BUT, how to the two different trajectories compare to each other. That was my only point.

One other thing to consider as well. We are talking about standard match bullets that are designed for muzzle velocities in the 2500-2800 fps range for the most part.

There are very few "match" grade bullets that are specifically designed for velocities WELL over 3000 fps. I have found that even with the SMK, that when velocity spreads are dramatic, say from 3000 fps to 3500 fps, there can be a noticable change in BC value. I have seen this go both ways, both up and down so it does not seem overly consistant or predictable so there is something going on with these big velocity shifts causing this measurable shift in BC.

I suspect there are no mathematical equations to predict this. I say this because it does not seem to be consist over a wide range of bullets.

Again, my tests were not with these bullets in question but similiar bullets and I can say for a fact that the BC value for those bullets, changed dramatically, even though they were all fired through Lilja 1-10 twist, 6 groove barrels. Only real difference was muzzle velocity.

Could it be that there are things at play that we simply have not written the equation for? I know scientists will jump all over that and say physics is physics but I have done enough shooting with these extreme wildcats and extreme bullets to know strange or unconventional results happen all the time. Maybe things just aren't as simple as it seems.

It was impossible to pull a BC number and plug it into my exbal and get it to produce a trajectory identical to my actual bullet flight. That is one reason I had to shoot at various ranges, plot the actual bullet drops and then manipulate the imput data to get the ballistic program to match actual bullet flight.

I have never had such problems with conventional chamberings with conventional bullets. Which leads me to think there are other considerations that have to be made when using such a combo to produce an accurate drop chart. Simply coming up with a paper BC number from an equation often times will not cut it.

This is not my opinion, its been fact when developing drop charts for several of my wildcats and these extreme performance bullets. Perhaps we just need a a new drag function specifically for this type of bullet.

Said it many times before and will again, if your interested, order some and test them and post your results. The more results we get the more accurate of a BC we will get and more usible the data will be.
 
Bryan,

When viewing the impacts on the target board, the impacts are in the vertical plane and not at an angle. If you look through your scope, the drops are vertical.... You go to the aiming point and measure where the bullet impacts intersect the reticle.The true drops were viewed through three calibrated scopes as I have previously stated.

If I would have had the board 90 degrees vertical, I could have measured them and converted to moa. But since it was not 90 degrees vertical, the reticle had to be used for the trajectory values.

...

James


James,

Am I misunderstanding what you just wrote. You measured the drops from 928yds through your scopes?
What type reticles do you have? For that matter, what kind of glass are you using to see the holes at 928yds?
You said the drops where from -10.3 to -10.5 moa. Was that the center of the groups?
How many shots where in each of the groups?
How many groups where shot?

I don't understand why the center of the group wasn't found at the target and actual measurement with a caliper was used from the center of the groups to the aim point? This is how I always measure my drops and it's much easier than trying to see the holes at nearly 1000yds and then estimate the MOA using a reticle.

Hopefully I just misunderstood your posting.

AJ
 
Fiftydriver,

Now I understand what you are saying.

You are correct that a bullet with a nose up trajactory will fly "flatter" than one which has a nose which traces (along with the CG) the actual line of trajectory. That is because the nose must be above the line of trajectory to be dynamically stable. Typically, this "angle of repose" is less than one degree (more like 30 minutes).

When Bryan mentioned a two degree angle of repose pertaining to the HAT (I picked this up second hand Bryan, so correct me if I am misquoting), he was actually estimating a relatively high angle of attack. This would generate excessive lift.

-Noel
 
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Noel,

If you take a bullet with the nose up, it has been tested and proven in some cases that its trajectory will be flatter then a bullet with a "nose on" trajectory line.

One other thing to consider as well. We are talking about standard match bullets that are designed for muzzle velocities in the 2500-2800 fps range for the most part.

I suspect there are no mathematical equations to predict this. I say this because it does not seem to be consist over a wide range of bullets.


Could it be that there are things at play that we simply have not written the equation for? I know scientists will jump all over that and say physics is physics but I have done enough shooting with these extreme wildcats and extreme bullets to know strange or unconventional results happen all the time. Maybe things just aren't as simple as it seems.

Bingo

Bingo

Bingo

And a double BINGO for the last part.
 
ME,

I just got off of the telephone with Sierra. I am not certain the represenative understood my question, because he went into an explaination of nose precession. When I attempted clarification, he stated that it is the nose tip through which trajectory is traced.

I know this is incorrect, and I will find documentation for you. The Sierra represenative could not provide a reference either.

This link is good, and may even spell out the answer. I know it will contradict the answer which I was given.

Best,
Noel

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm-11k


This is a picture from the link you just posted.

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig15.htm

fig15.gif


Now I will agree than under normal circumstances as we know them to be, a bullet's CG will follow the trajectory line. Violate the normal circumstances and it is usually possible to see results NOT so normal.
 
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ME,

Other than affirmation, I am not certain how "Bingo" should be interpreted.

Your order of emphasis appears to favor a "magical" preference. I do agree with FD's final point in a significant way... there are surprises all the time in my work. I will be the first to embrace the proposition that a problem is interesting, by virtue, of a level of unpredictability.

That said, this thread is akin to the "cold fusion" discovery of a few years ago. Many, otherwise thoughtful, people bought into it. Physical laws are not violated in the course of discovery.
 
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