Help the Marine Corps decide on a new caliber for their sniper rifles

[BountyHunter]

It will be the 338 Lapua. Just plain proven and criteria calls for two large ammo mftrs. USMC sniper instructors had the Brit para AI 338 Lapua guns for quite a while and loved them.

That leaves out the RUM, Edge etc

They are already shooting the 300 Win mag and goes to 1200 or so, that means the 300 WSM, 7-08, 7 short mag etc are not even in the running.

As far as cost, it is only 4 smart bombs or one fighter engine for the entire USMC and Army.

Forget a 700 action. They are wanting robust action with long term reliability with multiple barrel lifes. That leaves out an opened 700 that many consider marginal.

It will be a bolt action, simply due to the accuracy over a semi auto at 1500 plus.

My bets are on the AI guns. A super 338 master LR BR smith (who will go unnamed at this time and some here have even used) has been testing different reamer and barrel configurations for them. He will be hand checking the test guns. I am sure by the time they get the test guns for the services, the rifles will be absolutely tack drivers and butter smooth.

BH

 

[cavtrooper94]

I havn't personally seen anything a 308 wouldn't handle, although my fight was moslty Urban. A suppressed 300 WM was pretty cool but not truely needed. I don't have extensive knowledge of the 338 LM but I would be worried about weight. As long as the rifle itself wasn't heavier than a M24/M40 then I guess, why not. Maybe it'll make 338 LM rounds cheaper.

 

[Russ M]

after reading all 15 pages it sounds to me like this should be solved in several poles one for caliber, cartridge, and action(i say action because Mysticplayer's idea of an it being an upper for a m4 sounds very versatile to me)
that said IMO the 2 that are most likely to be used are the 300wm and the 338lm. now i am only getting started in the world of ballistics and long range shooting comparatively but from what i have seen read and experienced the 300wm would be the best to replace the 308 for several reasons you can push a 210gn bullet at around 2900fps which will give you excellent ballistics, recoil is easily manageable, the ammo is already being made, and several forces around the world already use it. they should also bring in the 338lm as an intermediate to the 408,416, and 50. most of all before changing the system they need to talk to the operators about what they want before doing anything else

 

[J E Custom]

I know it would be a totally new concept for the military ,But why don't they just ask
or take a poll of the people who need these weapons and what they think the calibre,
weight,Type of action,and any other features nessary to do there job with the least risk
to themselves.

We can make recommendations until we are blue in the face based on real world experience
and it will probably fall on deft ears.

Our Troops should be the best armed in the world not just as good as every one else (Most
of the time they are under gunned like our police and it is not right.

If I were you and still had the connections to contact as many snipers as possible and poll
them. armed with that information then present these specs. to this website for a possible
best fit for there needs I am sure there is enough experts hear to make a recommendation.

When the military goes out for a new fighter they send out a set of performance requirements
and decide (Most of the time) based on the best overall plane.

Why not do this with the sniper rifle.

Just my 2 cents

J E CUSTOM

 

[Magnumpeanut]

Did the 308 stop killing people in the last 75 years?

A long action cartridge will always have its disadvantages due to longer action cycling times and you simply cant carry as many bullets around. In the field you can hold more 308 in your pockets with smaller magazines than you can 300 WM or 338LM. 308 has predictable and dependable ballistics and enough stopping power for any human sized target.


Now the 223 and 9mm on the other hand, those may need an upgrade with the modern day wars we are fighting. Not near enough stopping power.

 

[liltank]

I have been conversing with many snipers in both Law Enforcement and Military. Their favorite caliber of choice is the .308 Winchester. Many of them use other calibers in different variations for different purposes, but they always come back to the .308. Some say they use the 300WM, but for heavier applications, they favor the .338LM. They have to use what is available and taught. The ammunition in circulation is the .223, .308, and .338. For extreme and heavy armor applications, they use the .50 BMG.

The AR platform in .223 has come along way and use it as a means of house to house sniping. The have squad marksmen that use high twist rates and heavier projectiles making them accurate out to 800+ meters. Some snipers are using AR10's in the 7.62X51 configuration because of the urban combat zone allowing for quicker follow up and the extended range they are looking for.

Just my .02.

Tank

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The 308's ability to kill hasn't changed over the last 75 yrs but warfare has changed. The starter of this thread, (a Marine Sniper Instructor) ndicated that the 308 was marginal or inadequate for the mission. Hence the title... Help the Marines decide on a *new* caliber for their sniper rifles. One of the requirments he stated was that the bullet needed to remain supersonic to 1500 yds. That leaves the 308 just a little short.

What the 308 can do, the WSM can do better and the cartridges aren't that much larger.

The 338 LM would be a great round, but you could carry a whole lot more WSM ammo and you wouldn't need a muzzle break. More compact and lighter, however you give up range and authority down range.

 

[purpledragon]

I don't own one but from what I've seen and read the .338 Edge would be a good choice..................

 

[liltank]

What about the good old 30-06 with a 190 grain projectile? Worked in WWII!

 

[Saulg]

Did the 308 stop killing people in the last 75 years?

No, but the enemy combatants know how far they can "effectively" shoot so they stay beyond that range or because of terrain, especially like in Afghanistan, the distances are so much greater for a cartridge that was designed for 800 yds...

John, There are lots of GREAT wildcats with similar or even better performance, like the .338 Edge, the Allen Magnums, etc., but selling the military on a non-standardized cartridge seems like an impossibility to me.

Thus the Lapua seems like the best bet.

Bill

Neither the .30/06 Springfield or the .308 Win/7.62NATO were commercial rounds until the military made them popular so your criteria of non-standard rounds doesn't apply...The .338 Lapua was made up for long distance shooters and morphed into being a sniper round...

Just because it's a wildcat now doesn't mean it won't be commercially viable tomorrow--think .22/250, .25/06, .250/3000, .30/338, .338/378...Hell, I remember when Elmer Keith got Winchester to make his .338 OKH into the .338 Win Mag and Weatherby to make their .338/378 from his round...

Look at the hype over the military adopting the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC as a replacement for the .223/5.56mm NATO...They sure weren't commercial rounds 8 - 10 years ago when this hullabaloo started!

The reason the military is sticking with the .308 as it was the only calibre that got created by the military's Ordnance Dept. and they don't want to see their baby go bye-bye! Well ,he's over 50 yrs old and should by this time leave his mama's apron strings!

Commercial; .338 Lapua but my preference is for the .408 CheyTac built on a standard M-40 style not the floating barrel that they copied from EDM...mine shoots impossibly small groups at all ranges to >1,500M...

For a real kick check out RND Mfg. for their Edge ARs in .300 Win mag, .338 Lapua mag and they built for the SHOT Show a .408 CheyTac...

The .416 Barrett is supposed to be neat but they and CheyTac just wouldn't sell their "one shot" computer to those who wanted to build their own, so we had to use our own computers to do it...The Barrett is just a necked down .50 BMG (so they could sell in CA) as is the .460 Steyr which I'd rather shoot of the two...

My next purchase is going to be an Unique Alpine switch barrel in .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua and .338 Allen Mag...

Mainly, forget about that *** Remington 700 action...for hunting/varmint rifles it's great but for a military action it requires CRF and my biggest beef with it--you have to spend $1,000 getting it blueprinted, squared, adjusted, trigger replaced when you could just go out and buy a semi or full custom action, like a Surgeon, RPA etc. for less money...I don't really care that you can make the 700 action shootable when you completely rebuild it, it then is no longer a 700 action...Just as a NASCAR stock car isn't your daddy's Oldsmobile!!!

 

[liltank]

Saulg,
Is that a hammer protruding from the rear of the action? If not, what is it and its function? I can't read German!

 

[BountyHunter]

Just because it's a wildcat now doesn't mean it won't be commercially viable tomorrow--think .22/250, .25/06, .250/3000, .30/338, .338/378...Hell, I remember when Elmer Keith got Winchester to make his .338 OKH into the .338 Win Mag and Weatherby to make their .338/378 from his round...

No, but it does not meet the contract criteria of two major commercial ammo manufacturers today; not maybe tomorrow! So forget wildcats for this contract, regardless of how good they might be.

Look at the hype over the military adopting the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC as a replacement for the .223/5.56mm NATO...They sure weren't commercial rounds 8 - 10 years ago when this hullabaloo started!

and at the end of the today, they are not standard military rounds now either so whats the point.

The reason the military is sticking with the .308 as it was the only calibre that got created by the military's Ordnance Dept. and they don't want to see their baby go bye-bye! Well ,he's over 50 yrs old and should by this time leave his mama's apron strings!

Who said they are getting rid of it or should they. Just adding a real LR capability that exceeds the 308. Pretty sure you will see the 308 around for awhile also. Might simply be the fact too that thousands of rifles chambered for it and perfectly fine for up to 800m rather than who the hell invented it 50 years ago. In reality, the military does not give a **** who invented it 50 years ago, total BS. The vaguest understanding of the military UNS and contract process would kill any thoughts of that.

BH

 

[Saulg]

Saulg,
Is that a hammer protruding from the rear of the action? If not, what is it and its function? I can't read German!

Not sure what you mean but:

The stock is removable, just at the pistol grip…behind the thumbhole is an adjustable cheek piece and near the end of the butt, on the bottom, is a "mono" pod and then the end which is also adjustable…there is a spare magazine well in the bottom of the butt, forward of the monopod like on the old Steyr Scout rifles…I hope that helps somewhat…

 

[Tactical]

First off thank you to the guys that started this. Its good to know good men are always looking for ways to make it easier for the one that follow them to do the hard jobs.
This is just my opinion but its based on a few years of Tactical and Competitive Shooting

First off no one round or one rifle will do everything. Once that is accepted we just have to decide which sytems and calibers are needed

Below is from Military non permissive enviornment not LE permissive.

Urban Work means short range and that means higher rates of fire because of lack of stand off distance. Sniper will have spotter with high rate of fire but always better to have both with weapons capable of rapid fire. This is Urban and and often you will have to move fast so carrying a secondary Assault Weapon will not b always an option. For this the SR25/MK11/M110s (Once all bugs are worked out) or a similar semi auto is the answer and 7.62 is a great choice for caliber. Great Terminal and External Balistics for distances needed, 0-800 yards. Great bbl life, around 10,000 rds. Already in system with all bugs worked out of round.

Rural Work means longer distances of up to 1500 yards. Here you have some stand off distance and a BoltAction can be used, with sniper having a secondary Assauly Weapon for unexpected short range "Oh Craps". Calibers here can be whittled down to several catagories. Smaller Bullets of heavy weight, with high BC and high velocity, Medium Caliber Bullets and the big bullets. Breaking down further, look into what the bullet needs to do at impact.

For two legged kills,any bullet 6.5mm or larger will work. Just remember the bigger the bullet the more recoil and muzzle blast produced.

For equipment knocking out the tougher the bullet, the better they tend to do the hard target work. Here 338 and larger is needed with the 50BMG having the edge. Plus the 50s already have specialty ammo to do lots of damage at impact. Draw back is 50BMG gives your position away first round with blast. Second round follow ups are slow and the systems are very heavy.

For two legged hits at great distance you need to consider blast, bbl life and recoil. Having shot the fast 6.5s I would stay away for military use. Between the 300WM, loaded to 3.6" with 210 or 220s and best 338 Lapua Ammo its a toss up to me. The 338 Has better range potential (addd about 200 yards over the best 300WM) but recoil is far worse. Both when fired as sniper weapons (Slow fire) have good bbl life (If rapid fired you can toast either bbl in a 1000 rds)

Hope this helps.