Help the Marine Corps decide on a new caliber for their sniper rifles

[Marine sniper]

This has been a great post.....lots of good info and educated opinions, I am glad it turned out the way it did when I started it. The two calibers I had in mind was a hotrod 7mm with a 180 gr. VLD type bullet or a .338 (Lapua or others) with a 300 gr. SMK.

I like the idea of the smaller, lighter, package the 7mm could fit into, the reduced signature would be a nice feature also. When shooting people at long range all you have to do is hit them, blowing a big hole in them or worrying about being able to reach the vitals is not a big concern. People know when they have been shot and the ramifications that come along with it.

The .338 was a little more popular choice than I thought it would be, I knew it would get some votes but not this many.

I would like to see the Marine Corps build 10 of each and then decide after a very thorough testing.

 

[Weda]

Up until this last offensive.. if you will. How oftern would the sniper engage a soft target to 1500 yards?

The Birits made use of the 338 Lapua quite well. BUt the cost to outfit all the snipers with this would be outtrageous.

1000 yards seems like it would serve as a mean of sorts. Given there are opportunties to engage targets farther but how often?

Not really a mention of the 300wsm will easily launch a 175 to 190 gr projectile with 1200 yard accuracy and be much more cost effective than the 300wm or the 338LM.

Powder capacity less than both and Winchester Brass is much more cost effective.

I myself have had several 300wsm builtin tactical configurations on a SA in the HTG, A3 and A5 stocks. All work wonderfully well. BDL and Mag fed too.

With an AI mag system your can have 3 in the mag one in the pipe with the10 round you can have 7 in the mag. I imagine the mages could be altered a bit to fit 5 and 10.

seems much more logical from all view points

 

[Elkkhunter]

Another vote for the 338 Lapua.

I just sold my HS Precision Professional Hunter Rifle to purchase the Take-Down model of the same version, great rifle at 8 1/4 lbs before scope, bi-pod, etc. I know HS Precision has gotten some contracts with other agencies.

Tons of energy to get thru body armor and such out past 1000 yrds.

They manufacture all components of their rifles in house and therefore have total control over components and quality. They have their tactical models at around 11 lbs before stuff, that my suit the Sniper with the heavier barrels for better accuracy during training. I don' see the heavier barrel making that much difference in the field since your going for one shot one kill, but I guess if you need a bunch of follow up shots the heavier barrel would help. I sure like the lighter weight while packing all day in the Oregon Rocky Mts. My 2 cents

 

[britz]

Ah what the heck, even though I'm way behind in knowledge and experience, and it seems this has been beat to death, hear's my opinion

Specs for mil are:
1) fill the gap between 50 and .308
2) light weight
3) battlefield durability and dependability
4) barrel life
5) standard round

I think the obvious choise is the 338 Lapua or the 300 win mag because they fit the criteria and they have been used in the past by the military.
I love the WSM and other steep shoulder cases, but the truth is that they could pose problems when chambering in adverse conditions.
I love the Idea of having a super fast bullet, but the snipers need to be able to fire thousands of rounds on a barrel.

Howzat for beating a dead horse

 

[Marine sniper]

More good points Weda, I know the Marines keep stats on how far their shots are in a combat environment. I "think" a rifle that will shoot to an acceptable level of accuracy to approx 1200 yards in a variety of atmospheric conditions would be the best choice. 1500-2000 yard shots are "probably" so rare it would not make since to develop a rifle with this requirement.

There would need to be other factors involved when choosing a rifle / caliber combination than just how far away a target can be engaged; how pack-able, signature, barrel life, ammo availability, etc, etc.....all would need to be fettered out in testing.

No need to worry about being able to shoot through body armor. Almost any rifle will shoot through soft body armor at any range you could hit someone at anyway.

 

[Marine sniper]

Ah what the heck, even though I'm way behind in knowledge and experience, and it seems this has been beat to death, hear's my opinion

Specs for mil are:
1) fill the gap between 50 and .308
2) light weight
3) battlefield durability and dependability
4) barrel life
5) standard round

I think the obvious choise is the 338 Lapua or the 300 win mag because they fit the criteria and they have been used in the past by the military.
I love the WSM and other steep shoulder cases, but the truth is that they could pose problems when chambering in adverse conditions.
I love the Idea of having a super fast bullet, but the snipers need to be able to fire thousands of rounds on a barrel.

Howzat for beating a dead horse

I agree, either the .338 or .300 Winchester would be a good choice and much better than the current .308. In a perfect world I think a 7mm with a 180 vld "might" be a better one though.......

 

[j70070]

why dosent the the marine corps adopt the m24? on the remington website there is the new m24 in 338 lapua just a thought

 

[Mysticplayer]

To stir the pot up

This is a topic I have muddled over for many years so here are my thoughts:

1) Simplest cheapest UPGRADE is to turn all 308 rifles to 7-08. With a 162gr Amax, they have cut their wind drift by at least 1/3 and the bullet will stay supersonic to about 1300+yds depending on how fast it leaves the pipe. I am sure loads can be tailored to +P needs.

Bullet works great on soft targets even when subsonic so 1500yds effective range is very possible.

It fits and runs in ALL existing equipment and only a barrel change is needed. Would be quite the upgrade for the SAW's too. Oh, the Brits would have a field day with this.

Less recoil as compared to the 175gr 308 loads. 7mm will hit harder at all distances due to higher retained velocity.

I bet any sniper shooting a 7-08 will think he had bought a laser beam for how forgiving it is in the wind vs the 308. I bet that is the main reason for issues at 800yds hitting targets. You just can't dope well enough under the stress of war and you miss.

There is little issue getting at least 3000 rds of accurate fire from any pipe and this case will work in shorter barrels - min 22". Good for adding a suppressor or creepy crawly in the urban environment.

2) I strongly believe that the Russians got it right by making their sniper rifle a semi auto. From what I have read, trying to make quick multiple target hits becomes necessary in Iraq. The bolt action is the slowest platform to try and do this with.

I see that there are AR10/SR25's in 308 being fielded now. I strongly agree this is a step in the right direction. Again, easy change to the 7-08.

however, the AR10/SR25's are horridly expensive so I bet less rifles will be procured then necessary...

3) I feel the ideal sniper rifle options ISN'T a rifle at all. It is a complete upper for the M4 carbine. This is a modular firearm afterall.

A DMR or sniper would approach their desired location with a fully auto working rifle - M4. On arrival, two pins and 30 secs later, he is ready to engage targets as accurately as any bolt rifle.

The upper would have barrel lengths identical to any bolt rifle (22" is my favorite for an urban rig but even 26" is easily installed). Scope already attached and zeroed. All in a nice compact case the length of a shorty shotgun - 26" to 30". And weigh maybe 6lbs. Sure beats a 5ft 18lbs 3`drag bag.

The cartridge would need to fit in a conventional AR mag. I do not recommend the 6.5 Grendel as it doesn't have the oomph. Makes for a dandy upgrade to the 223 but just not big enough for my tastes.

I would suggest a 6.5 SOCOM (a 7mm would also work but the 6.5 has better ballistics in this small of a case). No this cartridge does not exist but the 458 SOCOM does. It would require a simple necking down and voila, you have a case that is within spitting distance of the 6.5X47L. Loaded with 123gr Scenars (2900+fps) you have an effective 1200+yd platform that can make multiple shots FASTER then a 308 semi shooter. Recoil is substantially less.

Wind drift would be about 1/2 to 1/3 less then the 308. 800yds would be easy shooting.

You could stuff a 139/142gr bullet into this case if you needed the extra mass for hitting. I think the 130gr Berger/140gr Amax might just be the ideal bullet. Should have no issue getting 2700+fps which means the bullets will stay supersonic beyond 1300yds.

I see no issue hitting man sized targets out to 1500+yds with such a rig. As to lethality, that I leave to the experts.

The SOCOM single stacks very well in any AR mag and would have center feeding into the action. You can put at least 7 rds into a 20rd AR mag so logistics for packing ammo is a no brainer. will work out of 30rds mags too.

If things get hairy, the sniper can convert back to an assault rifle instead of fighting with a platform the armies of the world gave up on over 60yrs ago. Right now the sniper cannot do much in a fire fight.

All this at NO extra weight to the soldier. an M4 about 7lbs. The upper another say 6 to 7lbs. Equal/lighter then a contemporary bolt action 5rd mag rifle.

Best part is that these uppers would cost about $200 more then a conventional M4 upper so LOTS can be fielded. That is almost 4 to 1 uppers for an AR10/SR25. Pretty good economics me thinks. Also, don't need to carry/make different mags which is a large logistics and economic cost.

For rapid engagements of soft targets even at some pretty lengthy distances, I think this is an ideal compromise. Barrel life is easily 3000rds

4) I have shot and been around big 30's and 338's and there is little doubt they leave quite an impact out to 1 mile. If the need is to engage hardened assets at LR, the 338 Lapua is a very nice cartridge.

The cartridge is pretty much limited to a bolt rifle (Cobb AR I know little about) or heavy semi. It does a very good job but is it really necessary for the average mission profile in todays urban warfare?

It is horrendously expensive to shoot. About the same as a BMG with 1/3 the oomph. I am sure the costs will plummet when purchased in volume but it is pricey.

Recoil is also very stiff even in a 15lbs rifle unless a muzzle brake or better yet - suppressor is used. Not something I would want to field in an urban environment. In the Canadian prairies, sure!

Then there is issue of lugging a musket around that is of little use in a close quarter fire fight. Same handicaps of any bolt rifle.

Personally, if a big 338 is needed, I think the 338RUM makes a much easier/cheaper to utilize platform. However, the world is taking to the 338LM like bears to honey so this point is moot.

Of the big boomers, the 338LM certainly offers many advantages over a fast 30 for hitting power without the requirements of the 408/416/BMG.

I just think don't the average situation faced today warrants such a cannon. And if it did, wouldn't a BMG be a better friend?

Jerry

 

[James Jones]

Jerry , Jerry , Jerry , that will never work non of those ideas , its way to easy and makes way to much sense , not enough of the wrong people (gun makers) would benifit from it and their woulden't be any extra weeks of school for sodiers to have to go through to learn about the new weapon.
Its enought to make yu sick isin't it !!!!

I had this same disscussion about the 6.8 SPC , if one simply necked up the 223 case to 6mm you would have more energy on target at all ranges , more effecient round in short 14.5" barrels , better feeding due to less shoulder space and the only thing needed to change would be the barrel but that would have been to easy.

 

[Mysticplayer]

Jerry , Jerry , Jerry , that will never work non of those ideas , its way to easy and makes way to much sense , not enough of the wrong people (gun makers) would benifit from it and their woulden't be any extra weeks of school for sodiers to have to go through to learn about the new weapon.
Its enought to make yu sick isin't it !!!!.

If the US govt' really wanted to do some real world R&D/retrofit for a sniper system, they could post their requirements on this and other boards and an appropriate cartridge/system with all the bugs worked out would appear in about a week.

Maybe two cause this is super bowl weekend.

Costs zip except for maybe some recognition in the name of the cartridge/system and some photo opps. Of course, being able to go to a real military range and plink away for a few days full auto would be kind of fun.

But then where would all those BILLIONS of dollars go????????

Maybe something as stupid as educating our children and improving industry so our jobs can stay at home. Design more fuel effecient cars/trucks so we don't need to go fight these stupid wars in the first place.

HERETIC BURN HIM AT THE STAKE.

Jerry

 

[NesikaChad]

Simple things. . .

We all know there are cartridges that are much better suited to killing a man than the Winchester 308.

The fundamental problem that lies here is the ability to implement this bold undertaking.

I've been in Iraq almost two years now. I'm in Baghdad right now as I sit here typing this. The logistical hurdles to get stuff here is beyond the comprehension of most. You can't imagine how frustrating it can be at times.

So, now you are suggesting that Lake City arsenal tear down and retool to produce a quantity large enough to support precision weapons for an entire branch of service.

Then, a barrel maker has to spin up how many thousands of barrels?

How many reamers does David Kiff need to make for chambering?

Then you gotta re write all the drop and wind tables.

Then burn up a million rounds retraining every sniper out there so they can dope for the round when on the fly.

This war would be over and we'd all be old and gray before that happened.

Uncle Sam has been suffering from a chronic yeast infection for some time when it comes to quick reaction.

Just putting things into perspective.

 

[Glassnfool]

I have a Sako actioned Lazzeroni Warbird that fits the bill. Brass might be a problem, but it is fast, flat, and accurate.

 

[Mysticplayer]

We all know there are cartridges that are much better suited to killing a man than the Winchester 308.

The fundamental problem that lies here is the ability to implement this bold undertaking.

I've been in Iraq almost two years now. I'm in Baghdad right now as I sit here typing this. The logistical hurdles to get stuff here is beyond the comprehension of most. You can't imagine how frustrating it can be at times.

So, now you are suggesting that Lake City arsenal tear down and retool to produce a quantity large enough to support precision weapons for an entire branch of service.

Then, a barrel maker has to spin up how many thousands of barrels?

How many reamers does David Kiff need to make for chambering?

Then you gotta re write all the drop and wind tables.

Then burn up a million rounds retraining every sniper out there so they can dope for the round when on the fly.

This war would be over and we'd all be old and gray before that happened.

Uncle Sam has been suffering from a chronic yeast infection for some time when it comes to quick reaction.

Just putting things into perspective.

No one said this undertaking would be easy but it is something that might help the troops. Ultimately, the soldier has to lead this drive. If needed, get the word out and up the food chain.

As for new systems and spending money, look at the new Bush budget. A rifle and support will cost a few million. That is chum change to what the big dollar programs are costing.

One day of Iraqi operation will cover ALL costs of this new sniper system.

As for production and tooling up, this is America the industrial might of the world, isn't it???? I bet a system can be up and running by the summer IF there was a desire to do so.

How many snipers are there?

As for shooting and learning, the snipers today are using the most difficult delivery system and cartridge. Going to the suggestions above will be a walk in the park. They will litterally increase hit ratios by at least 15% in a couple of range sessions. I expect up to 50% beyond 600yds when the wind blows. Compensating LESS is easy.

new drop charts and tables happen at a push of a few buttons. I think there are still a few printers in the sandbox.

Why bother with billions of rds of ammo when millions are plenty? Smaller manf like Black Hills and Hornady would be only too happy to provide their expertise for 'small' volume top quality ammo. They are doing it right now.

The US forces have had system changes twice so far and are looking into another. Yes, it is not easy and costs a huge amount of money. But if it improves results which leads to saving soldiers, small price to pay...

Jerry

 

[NesikaChad]

No one said this undertaking would be easy but it is something that might help the troops. Ultimately, the soldier has to lead this drive. If needed, get the word out and up the food chain.

As for new systems and spending money, look at the new Bush budget. A rifle and support will cost a few million. That is chum change to what the big dollar programs are costing.

One day of Iraqi operation will cover ALL costs of this new sniper system.

As for production and tooling up, this is America the industrial might of the world, isn't it???? I bet a system can be up and running by the summer IF there was a desire to do so.

How many snipers are there?

As for shooting and learning, the snipers today are using the most difficult delivery system and cartridge. Going to the suggestions above will be a walk in the park. They will litterally increase hit ratios by at least 15% in a couple of range sessions. I expect up to 50% beyond 600yds when the wind blows. Compensating LESS is easy.

new drop charts and tables happen at a push of a few buttons. I think there are still a few printers in the sandbox.

Why bother with billions of rds of ammo when millions are plenty? Smaller manf like Black Hills and Hornady would be only too happy to provide their expertise for 'small' volume top quality ammo. They are doing it right now.

The US forces have had system changes twice so far and are looking into another. Yes, it is not easy and costs a huge amount of money. But if it improves results which leads to saving soldiers, small price to pay...

Jerry

What was I thinking. . .??

It only took three weeks for the PX to get toothpaste.


They had plenty of cat food though. (***?)