You don't have to redesign the firing pin. The firing pin hole in the bolt body would just start where that pin is, only the body would change, and you could use other ejectors and extractors.
Floating bolt head on 700??
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You don't have to redesign the firing pin. The firing pin hole in the bolt body would just start where that pin is, only the body would change, and you could use other ejectors and extractors.
Danny1788
Well-Known Member
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
An estimated $300-$400 to have this done to your bolt? I can see lots of guys demanding "cheaper, cheaper", jumping right on that! Do you suppose you'd gain $300-$400 worth of added accuracy?
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I am still having trouble figuring out "WHY". I have worked on many Savages and 700s and don't see any advantages in precision alignment of the lugs and bolt face.
When you do a proper job of machining all the surfaces of the lugs and face to the center line of the action/bolt you cant get any more true than that buy replacing it with a bolt head that by description "floats" increasing the likely hood that If a piece of grit or any foreign object gets under the bolt head can throw all alignments off, increasing the likelihood of poor performance "WHY".
For the long range game, consistency is the name of the game and any way we can prevent "Murphy" from getting involved, the better. Leave the designing up to the designers and work on other things that have an impact on accuracy. Buy the action you want and be happy with it but don't over complicate/Think the design.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
When you do a proper job of machining all the surfaces of the lugs and face to the center line of the action/bolt you cant get any more true than that buy replacing it with a bolt head that by description "floats" increasing the likely hood that If a piece of grit or any foreign object gets under the bolt head can throw all alignments off, increasing the likelihood of poor performance "WHY".
For the long range game, consistency is the name of the game and any way we can prevent "Murphy" from getting involved, the better. Leave the designing up to the designers and work on other things that have an impact on accuracy. Buy the action you want and be happy with it but don't over complicate/Think the design.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with ether system, so Why change ether one.
One is not automatically better than the other and group size has more to do with the barrel provided on the rifles. As stated, I have built many rifles on both actions using Quality custom barrels and both the 700 and the Savage have shot very well. So well it would be hard for most to see the difference.
Savages have a good reputation for shooting good right out of the box, but that does not make there action any better. As a smith, I only see the bad ones and they are the ones I have to base my opinion on.
Without ticking all of the savage guys off, all I can say is in order to make the Savage shoot its best, there are more things to do to it and truing it is more difficult. I will always believe that "Less is More" when it comes to machining and the less you have to do the better the outcome (Each process adds the chance of an error and the combined amount of parts only increase the chance of problems.
A gunsmith has to treat each rifle different in order to get the most out of it and there are different things required for different brands in order to get accuracy that a smith has to know and when to apply them in order to produce a 1/4 moa rifle.
So how well a rifle shoots out of the box has less to do with the brand and more to do with the combination of all parts.
If a person wants to spend all of the time and money to install a "Floating head" on a 700 rem action, In hopes of improving its potential accuracy, Have At It. But in my opinion its a waste of time and money.
The best accuracy is achieved because many quality things come together including reloads and most important, the shooter him self.
J E CUSTOM
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
It ain't in the bolt head, it's in the barrel! (and the bedding, and the trigger, and the scope and mounting system, and the nut behind the trigger!)
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
JJ
This subject came up At the range the other day when a person was looking at some of my custom rifles and noticed that I didn't have a "True" savage rifle (I have one, but it does not have the barrel nut)
and commented that they shot better than the other brands of rifles.
Not trying to be a smart ***, and remembering this post I tried to answer his question in layman terms and not from a gunsmiths point of view, so he could understand why the action, does not make the difference in accuracy.
So I ask him what was the purpose of a bolt. He couldn't really give a good answer so I helped him out by saying. "A bolt is nothing more than a plug to stop the cartridge from coming out during firing and to remove the empty case afterwards. As long as the bolt doesn't move
during firing, and remains square it has no bearing on accuracy because it is an inanimate object.
Next was a comparison to the most accurate weapons in the world, (The big Naval guns and artillery that can be accurate out to 18+ miles)
none of these have a "floating bolt head" and simply a breach block (Normally one piece).
Still not convinced, He wanted to see my test groups and compare his to mine. I told him it would not prove anything but he wanted to see how his Savages shot. (He had nothing but Savages).
After seeing his groups, I could see that He was the main problem even though he was proud of the 1 MOA groups. The first thing he wanted to see was how the Savage shot without the barrel nut. (Then I went into a long winded explanation why I built savages this way) The Savage bolt was blueprinted also. the groups were running under 1/4 MOA (.128 to .187 depending on the load) At that point I explained that all of my rifles had custom barrels and that was where the TRUE difference was. Then he wanted to see some of the other groups. The groups on the Savage mentioned was in 7/08 I also had a Remington 700 in the same caliber and used the same reamer and barrel maker, so they were as close to one another as possible. Accuracy of each was very close to the same. (I'm not sure if the difference was me or the rifle, but Probably me).
The Remington was slightly better by between .005 and .011 thousandths average. (Not enough to determine anything about the actions accuracy benefits. I think I explained it well enough for him to see that there was no advantage to one action over another if everything was done right and ammo was loaded with as much precision as possible. But the explanation about blueprinting and custom barrels gave him an out. (I knew he was a diehard Savage fan and it would probably would not change his mind and that's fine), as long as he is happy.
He did comment on all the things he had heard and read on line, about how much better the Savages were because of the "Floating bolt heads".
So nothing will/has convinced me that it has anything to do with accuracy just ease of assembly for the factory, Just like the barrel nut. (Which I automatically eliminate when installing a new barrel).
J E CUSTOM
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JJMoody
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I have no dog in the fight here. I've been daydreaming trying to cheap out on my next build. You know, the 1/4 moa short action 1000yard grizzly bear hammer in my favorite 6mm.... kind of stuff. I do realize that the barrel and careful load development are probably the two likely culprits in LR accuracy, but I really am glad to see I'm not the only one who's asked this question before. As always, I'm grateful for the responses. Merry Christmas
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
There is an article somewhere on the exact steps for converting a Rem bolt to a floating bolt head. Really for a Rem your better off just getting two bolts.
The only advantage to a floating head and I don't even think it provable is the bolt and action lugs are always in contact unlike a Rem where the sear forces the back of the bolt up unseating the bolt lugs which then have to square up at firing.
Someone thought that the floating bolt head would have more issues with dirt under the lugs and that just isn't the case because the floating bolt head always makes contact and wipes the lugs, I've fixed piles of galled lugs on rem and rem clones never a Savage!?!
In the end it would only be a fun project for personal interests but nothing really beyond that.
The only advantage to a floating head and I don't even think it provable is the bolt and action lugs are always in contact unlike a Rem where the sear forces the back of the bolt up unseating the bolt lugs which then have to square up at firing.
Someone thought that the floating bolt head would have more issues with dirt under the lugs and that just isn't the case because the floating bolt head always makes contact and wipes the lugs, I've fixed piles of galled lugs on rem and rem clones never a Savage!?!
In the end it would only be a fun project for personal interests but nothing really beyond that.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE=
Someone thought that the floating bolt head would have more issues with dirt under the lugs and that just isn't the case because the floating bolt head always makes contact and wipes the lugs.
One of the first things I do when blueprinting a Savage, Is to dissemble the bolt head and inspect the two surfaces because I have found brass shavings and carbon deposits bonded to one of these surfaces from firing pressures. These have to be removed before/during squaring because they cannot be removed buy the floating bolt head and the flex washer between the two holds the bolt head gap open during operation except when fired. this washer serves several functions but can also allow small foreign object to enter if present at the right time.
This condition only has an effect on accuracy when it exist and is not dealt with. I have seen this many times (But not every time) and have been forced to check to see if the problem exist with every blueprinting of the Savage action. I have seen this same condition in chambers that were not properly cleaned and the foreign objects have to be removed to prevent marking the brass.
Things that "Cant happen" seem to show themselves at the worst times, so a no stone unturned approach is necessary in my opinion in the search for accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
Someone thought that the floating bolt head would have more issues with dirt under the lugs and that just isn't the case because the floating bolt head always makes contact and wipes the lugs.
One of the first things I do when blueprinting a Savage, Is to dissemble the bolt head and inspect the two surfaces because I have found brass shavings and carbon deposits bonded to one of these surfaces from firing pressures. These have to be removed before/during squaring because they cannot be removed buy the floating bolt head and the flex washer between the two holds the bolt head gap open during operation except when fired. this washer serves several functions but can also allow small foreign object to enter if present at the right time.
This condition only has an effect on accuracy when it exist and is not dealt with. I have seen this many times (But not every time) and have been forced to check to see if the problem exist with every blueprinting of the Savage action. I have seen this same condition in chambers that were not properly cleaned and the foreign objects have to be removed to prevent marking the brass.
Things that "Cant happen" seem to show themselves at the worst times, so a no stone unturned approach is necessary in my opinion in the search for accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
