Digital Scale and Accuracy

I am on my second Hornady GS350, which is no longer made. It is very small, accurate, and I take it to the range for load development. Couple times each month, I check it against my Redding beam scale, and it is always within .1 gr. It runs on two AA batteries.

Wish they were still available.
 
Okay, so anyone who knows anything about electronics and engineering understands that practically speaking it is only a matter of money to make an istrument just about as accurate as one can imagine. We can measure distances in millionths of an inch with a laser because we're basically measuring with angstroms.
But the bottom line for me is...is there a reasonably priced digital scale that can consistently measure +/- 1 kernel of Varget or H4350? My beam scale does that.
If so, I would like to know the maker, model and approximate price.

It acutally may be that variance in neck tension, case capacity, individual primer explosiveness, or something else will have more of an effect on velocity, but those are things I don't know how to measure and control with extreme accuracy....Unlike the powder charge.
 
The simple answer to your question before trickydicky comes back to speak to the masses is what a particular individual considers "reasonably priced"! He can talk to the masses all he wants, but when I asked him the simple question about his statement of scales used on the shop floor compared to the top of the line digital scales the plant was actually using to insure that as close to 100% of product shipped was passable, I got no answer! Sure you can buy a digital scale for reloading that will do what you are asking, but the price is going to be much higher than ones these reloading supply businesses are selling. The reason is because you are basically asking for a laboratory-type device that has that kind of internal sensitivity compared to the devices being offered by companies for under 2 or 3 hundred dollars. The great thing about a good mechanical balance is that you can see the continuing motion as powder is dispensed into the pan right up to your target weight. With any digital device the way it has to decide when it will display the next increment you do not have that luxury without spending big money for a laboratory type device that has a much more sensitive breaking point than these reloading scales being sold. That is not to say that the latter are not acceptable to do the job as long as a person knows how they work and what to expect. The other thing I've mentioned before is that sooner or later an electronic device is going to fail, while a balance will literally last forever if cared for properly. As I mentioned previously, I spent over 30 years as a State W&M Inspector and was actively involved my entire career working with persons all the way up though the national level at NIST in developing and passing the requirements in NIST Handbook 44 that are used to insure that all commercial W&M equipment meets the necessary requirements for an equitable marketplace. Therefore, I think I can speak to this situation a little better than a person in most other professions.
 
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I dispense powder on the RCBS Chargemaster 1500 then do a second weight on the Acculab VIC-123. I can literally watch the Chargemaster 1500 and know whether the charge is going to be on, under or over. I always let both machines warm up for 30 minutes before I use them. Both of these will match up with the beam scale. Every now and again the VIC-123 will act up a little, last night was a good example. I had just loaded about 40 rounds of 6.5x284. I was then going to do more charges for my daughters 243 Win OCW test. Each time I placed the cup/tray back on the VIC-123 it would not return to zero and I had to rezero it. After floating around for about 20 rounds I just put all my charges back and called it a night.....not sure what was going on. One thing I can say is that with the VIC-123, I cannot reload with a fan on. It picks up wind current. I believe I paid $350-450 for the scale 6 years ago. Money well spent in my opinion.
 
I dispense powder on the RCBS Chargemaster 1500 then do a second weight on the Acculab VIC-123. I can literally watch the Chargemaster 1500 and know whether the charge is going to be on, under or over. I always let both machines warm up for 30 minutes before I use them. Both of these will match up with the beam scale. Every now and again the VIC-123 will act up a little, last night was a good example. I had just loaded about 40 rounds of 6.5x284. I was then going to do more charges for my daughters 243 Win OCW test. Each time I placed the cup/tray back on the VIC-123 it would not return to zero and I had to rezero it. After floating around for about 20 rounds I just put all my charges back and called it a night.....not sure what was going on. One thing I can say is that with the VIC-123, I cannot reload with a fan on. It picks up wind current. I believe I paid $350-450 for the scale 6 years ago. Money well spent in my opinion.

The beam scales respond to air current also. I just wait until either the air conditioner or the furnace fan shuts off. Easy enough to do.
I looked online at the manual for your digital scale and like you dais, it indicates an over or under condition for you. I imagine it took a little while to get used to that. Especially since you can't see how fast a trickler is bringing you up to weight other than watching the .1 increments. I can easily watch the beam pointer and it's much easier for me than watching numbers changing quickly.
But, you still don't know how far you are away from a number, only that you are.
I weigh charges of slower burning powders to .1. My powder measure does just fine for all powders I use up to 2400 or 4227. I can't remember if 4198 measures to .1 grain or not. I never found a good load using it in my 221 Fireball and wasn't suitable for bullets in my 22-50, unless I wanted to shoot 40 or 45 grain bullets. At one time I considered cast bullets for squirrel hunting in that 22-250, but decided it was more trouble than it was worth.
If it's suitable for you, then you should use it.

My intent wasn't to criticize anyone who used a digital scale, but only to clarify why I wouldn't use one. For myself, I certainly wouldn't want to bear the cost since it has no advantage for me. I rarely load more than 40 - 100 rounds at a time. For my pistol & revolver calibers, once I have my powder measure set, it'll consistently dump my powders within .1 or less all day long.
 
Topgun: "You just made my point when you stated that you had Lab scales (many thousands of dollars) for your primary standard! That sort of equates to what boomtube and I are referring to "

Exactly so.

Gary, you present an eloquent defense of digitals. You mention digitals where you work that can detect floor viberations from a distance and then talk about Pact powder scales as if even they are capabile of such sensitivity. You may not mean to connect the dots that way -and I hope you know better - but that's the image you will leave if it's not corrected. I will; guys, that's like apples vs. chicken fingers, meaning there ain't NO reloading scale going to have anything like that kind of sensitivity!

You mention the daily care and calibration checks for the accuracy/sensitivity your digitals require at your work without mentioning that no reloader has the tools to make checks tighter than .1 gr and no way to correct any real error or scale failure if it occurs; that matters. Yes, labs and some repair shops do have highly sensitive digital scales, so do drug stores and meat markets, etc, but they all have routine checks by well trained certification technicians with some costly test instruments to maintain them. And so do the ones you use at work but you fail to mention that and that's really not honest with our readers! I know about those checks require because I once did it. But I no longer have access to the calibration/repair tools so I don't use digitals and I don'recommend the finicky things to any reloader. Reloading digitals are indeed quirky; they suffer from hysterisis, are sensitive to ambient temperature and line power, they are not as long lasting and are in no way better for reloading than a beam powder scale.

Fact is, even the best digital scales simply don't bring anything specific (but trouble) to the loading bench; not speed, not accuracy, not ease of use, not reliability. My Ohaus/Lyman M5 beam scale's test weight reads exactly the same today as it did in '65 and I have no doubt it will last that much longer without fail. My scale is not unique among beam scales but NOTHING electronic lasts that long and everyone knows it!

Now, digital powder dumpsters are a whole different thing from simple scales. I'm practiced with my old manual powder measure, a very good powder trickler and my beam scales, I can easily match the speed of my friend who has an RCBS system but I KNOW exactly what my powder charges are. My young friend just knows what his digital readout says and that digital readout only needs to be off ONCE. That sudden change can happen and that's why I was well paid and had good job security for a long time! I do have a digital I use to weight cases and bullets but not powder, no one's going to be hurt if a bullet or case is different from what I thought but ... powder? Naw, I insist on knowing what my charges are, all the time, every time.

So, IMHO, the value of a digital dumpster depends entirely on the user; if he has a well arranged work flow path and good technique the manual worker will be as fast and accurate as an automated digital system at its best. If the user is slow, if his tools are poorly place or if he's inattentive to details he will likely be better served with something other than the old tools. ??
 
Topgun, thank you for your comments and weighing in on the subject. (sorry, I just had to ;-) Your professional opinion is well worth considering.
Yes, the "trigger point" for a digital scale to change from one amount to the next (I think) is in fact because it IS an anlogue system at its root (something is moving, something measures that) and the movement must be converted to digits which have a specific level of resolution or "granularity". Hysteresis may also be at work in some of these systems. In fact, when I'm dropping single kernels on a RCBS beam, there seems to be a little hysteresis in that system too. But I always repeat the same actions. Weighing a charge to get it as perfect as I can, takes up to 45 seconds for me.

coues7, your signigure line is pure psyhco/social Truth! Something everyone should remember when passing through this world of humans. I've seen it before but thanks for the reminder.

Tracy, worthwhile story about your wandering scale too. I've been into digital electronics since '80 and these variances are the kind of thing that scares me a little when using digital scales. I've had 2 cheapies (not to suggest your VIC 123 is) and they both did things like that.

Really, when we're talking about tiny differences in weight, like .1 gr, the consistency of a scale is much more important than the absolute accuracy. My cheapies are not as consistent as my beam, and also don't seem to be as accurate. (I have standard reference weights that were made long before anything in the world was digital.)

For many shooting situations, a simple powder drop, or better yet a chargemaster is probably accurate and consistent enough. I used to think guys were going a little overboard by sorting brass and weighing every charge, but now I do it myself for my longer range rifles. .223 out of a mini14, probably not.
 
Ditto to TracySec & Boomtube....my sentiments exactly! Though I will admit that in my dreams I have a digital dumpster that throws charges +/- .05gr in 3 seconds directly into the case....
And then there's that hot girl on the beach in a tiny bikini smiling at me seductively over the top of her shades, throwing back her hair and then doing that little yawn stretch thing....Ohh, I just woke up and darn, I'm not 27 anymore!:cool:
OK, so I pick up my new 7mm RM tonight from my FFL...yippie!
 
Ditto to TracySec & Boomtube....my sentiments exactly! Though I will admit that in my dreams I have a digital dumpster that throws charges +/- .05gr in 3 seconds directly into the case....
And then there's that hot girl on the beach in a tiny bikini smiling at me seductively over the top of her shades, throwing back her hair and then doing that little yawn stretch thing....Ohh, I just woke up and darn, I'm not 27 anymore!:cool:
OK, so I pick up my new 7mm RM tonight from my FFL...yippie!

Shootin4fun,

You're not 27 anymore! I'm not 67 anymore. :)
 
i just love these threads! always revert to a "mine is bigger than your" discussion
when all the guy wants is an answer to a simple question.
the simple answer is 'use whatever the hell works for you !

scale people are generally so used to 'em they will never change, and digital folks are the same way. and, who gives a s--- about a 1/10th. gr anyway, it don't make no diff to 99.99999% of the shooters in the real world.
and my mothers cousin's next door neighbor's best grade school buddy say's so !
 
"You're not 27 anymore! I'm not 67 anymore. "

Ah, to be a mere 67 again! Oh well, getting old is better than the alternative. So far as I know.

MTBULLET, bottom line you're right; use what ever floats your boat. Thing is, the guy who asks 'digital or manual' has no point of reference, his boat is still outta the water, and that's why the question gets asked.
 
Topgun: "You just made my point when you stated that you had Lab scales (many thousands of dollars) for your primary standard! That sort of equates to what boomtube and I are referring to "

Exactly so.

Gary, you present an eloquent defense of digitals. You mention digitals where you work that can detect floor viberations from a distance and then talk about Pact powder scales as if even they are capabile of such sensitivity. You may not mean to connect the dots that way -and I hope you know better - but that's the image you will leave if it's not corrected. I will; guys, that's like apples vs. chicken fingers, meaning there ain't NO reloading scale going to have anything like that kind of sensitivity!

* never said a Pact was the best scale out there, but I did point out the dollar and cents value ($248 verses $350). Now I'll be first to tell you that I've used a small percentage of the digital scales out there right now, but will also tell you that I just never had a problem that mounted to much of anything with any of them. But also never really had a problem with the beam scales I've used. They all worked well.

You mention the daily care and calibration checks for the accuracy/sensitivity your digitals require at your work without mentioning that no reloader has the tools to make checks tighter than .1 gr and no way to correct any real error or scale failure if it occurs; that matters. Yes, labs and some repair shops do have highly sensitive digital scales, so do drug stores and meat markets, etc, but they all have routine checks by well trained certification technicians with some costly test instruments to maintain them. And so do the ones you use at work but you fail to mention that and that's really not honest with our readers! I know about those checks require because I once did it. But I no longer have access to the calibration/repair tools so I don't use digitals and I don'recommend the finicky things to any reloader. Reloading digitals are indeed quirky; they suffer from hysterisis, are sensitive to ambient temperature and line power, they are not as long lasting and are in no way better for reloading than a beam powder scale.

* I'm just kinda locked into the quality check mode. Been that way for a long long time. I even go so far as to cull powder charges I throw with the Harrell for a check (usually every fifth charge). I've also kinda got a system that I set up my equipment (I also did the samething with beam scales if it matters much). Guess that's just me, but it also works well for me.

Fact is, even the best digital scales simply don't bring anything specific (but trouble) to the loading bench; not speed, not accuracy, not ease of use, not reliability. My Ohaus/Lyman M5 beam scale's test weight reads exactly the same today as it did in '65 and I have no doubt it will last that much longer without fail. My scale is not unique among beam scales but NOTHING electronic lasts that long and everyone knows it!

*I wrote a post awhile about checking the calibration weights supplied with scales. I checked them on more than one scale, and the results were not great.

Now, digital powder dumpsters are a whole different thing from simple scales. I'm practiced with my old manual powder measure, a very good powder trickler and my beam scales, I can easily match the speed of my friend who has an RCBS system but I KNOW exactly what my powder charges are. My young friend just knows what his digital readout says and that digital readout only needs to be off ONCE. That sudden change can happen and that's why I was well paid and had good job security for a long time! I do have a digital I use to weight cases and bullets but not powder, no one's going to be hurt if a bullet or case is different from what I thought but ... powder? Naw, I insist on knowing what my charges are, all the time, every time.

* I pretty much wrote in the past that I have no serious preference in the digital measurers. I know what ones I didn't prefer (not just my own opinion as well), and also have said what I liked. The Pact and the RCBS units worked for me, and the other didn't.

So, IMHO, the value of a digital dumpster depends entirely on the user; if he has a well arranged work flow path and good technique the manual worker will be as fast and accurate as an automated digital system at its best. If the user is slow, if his tools are poorly place or if he's inattentive to details he will likely be better served with something other than the old tools. ??

In your last couple of paragraphs you have pretty much mirrored my own thoughts regarding the dispensors. I don't use mine much, because I find it a bother to setup. But I also trust it. Still if I were planing on dumping two hundred charges of 4350, I'd drag it out. I rarely drop more than thirty charges at onetime.

Now one last thought about the one or two kernel issues. I suggest that we take our favorite load, and load up five rounds with two extra kernels in them. See the difference? I can't.
gary
 
"Now one last thought about the one or two kernel issues. I suggest that we take our favorite load, and load up five rounds with two extra kernels in them. See the difference? I can't."

Now, on THAT point we fully agree! :D

I have to laff at the serious posts I read about some people thinking .1 gr simply isn's sufficent powder accuracy for true believers like themselves. Some even go to the extreme of buying scales costing in the thousands to meet their personal 'standards' as if accurecy/consistancy to .000001 gr. matters. Goodness, the difference between individual primers and selected cases probably have a greater effect than .1 gr. of powder and I KNOW a ten degree ambient temperature change will affect the burn rate and pressure more than one kernel or five of powder. :cool:
 
"Now one last thought about the one or two kernel issues. I suggest that we take our favorite load, and load up five rounds with two extra kernels in them. See the difference? I can't."

Now, on THAT point we fully agree! :D

I have to laff at the serious posts I read about some people thinking .1 gr simply isn's sufficent powder accuracy for true believers like themselves. Some even go to the extreme of buying scales costing in the thousands to meet their personal 'standards' as if accurecy/consistancy to .000001 gr. matters. Goodness, the difference between individual primers and selected cases probably have a greater effect than .1 gr. of powder and I KNOW a ten degree ambient temperature change will affect the burn rate and pressure more than one kernel or five of powder. :cool:

Actually when I was speaking of 1 or 2 kernels accuracy, I really meant sensitivity and consistency. When we get very close to the best load,
 
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