I have both bushing and non bushing for my 6.5 CM and my 6x47 Lapua. If you use exact loading methods cleaning annealing trimming etc I do not see a need for bushing dies in most cases. Mt rifles shoot in the 2s and 3s with standard Lee dies. There are no flies on Lee dies!!
Bushing die (worth it for the non-long range, non-bulk shooter)?
- Thread starter Bigeclipse
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Philip J Theodhor
Active Member
The problem with ex pander dies is that they accomplish just that. They by design expand the neck as well as thin it out to a degree when the ex pander ball is retracted. In a die of a lesser quality the brass cases neck can also be thrown to one side or the other. This may result in a neck ID / OD run out. You must also take into consideration the fact that your shell holder may or may not be square with your resing dies base , hence further run out can be induced.Also as mentioned above neck tension and bullet seating can also become issues
I make it a point to deprime , Fl resize w/o bushing, expand the neck , anneal brass , run a .001" ex pander die through the case mouth then depending on the brass either neck turn virgin brass or.neck turn say a once fired factory case, media tumble , and continue the loading process. There are a few more steps and checks that I also perform but in answer to your question I pose this question.
Just what is a once in a life time hunt and trophy worth ? " Priceless is the answer ".
So now just my opinion why would you skimp on quality components ?
Just save aggravation and time by either purchasing the equipment necessary to produce quality ammunition,or buy premium factory ammunition like say Lupua, Norma, Federal , or Horandy and save a lot of load development time as well as your hard earned cash.
If you must have a certain bullet , powder , primer or brass combination you must roll your own ! If you choose premium factory ammunition you still must put in some trigger time in order to confirm your rifles P.O.A. & P.O.I. before that hunt.
I hope that you do opt for the Redding bushing FL resizing die set. The quality ammunition that you will produce is certainly a confidence builder and game changer. Yeah I know the price but again I say how much is trophy worth ? ! Best Of Luck !
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For a lot of us a sub minute of angle don't cut it. I've been reloading for over 30 years and somewhere around 1993 I built a custom 7-08AI had a regular set of dies w/micro bullet seater. The rifle didn't shoot as well as I thought it should, sub minute but not great. Enter the bushing die, just changing the neck tension really helped getting tight little groups. I purchased 3 bushings .306-.308 It was the .306 where I found the sweet spot. So, long story short....IMO yes, they're worth the money.
bigedp51
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The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use the expander that comes with their bushing dies. Meaning Redding wants you to push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck using the expander. So again bushing dies work best with neck turned brass and tight neck chambers.
The more you reduce the neck diameter with a bushing die the greater chance the "floating" bushing will induce neck runout.
And the reason so many reloaders use a body die and a Lee collet die is because they get less neck runout with the Lee collet die.
I have three Redding bushing dies and my same caliber Forster full length dies will produce resized cases with less neck runout. And the Forster dies are cheaper than Redding bushing dies and produce more concentric ammunition. And this was explained in the 6.5 Guys video in my earlier posting.
Below even a cheap Lee full length die can produce cases with less neck runout than Redding bushing dies. So remember the bushing floats, it can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. Meaning the more you reduce the neck diameter with a bushing die the greater the chance it will induce neck runout. And again this is why the Lee collet die is more popular with off the shelf factory rifles with chambers that have larger neck diameters.
The more you reduce the neck diameter with a bushing die the greater chance the "floating" bushing will induce neck runout.
And the reason so many reloaders use a body die and a Lee collet die is because they get less neck runout with the Lee collet die.
I have three Redding bushing dies and my same caliber Forster full length dies will produce resized cases with less neck runout. And the Forster dies are cheaper than Redding bushing dies and produce more concentric ammunition. And this was explained in the 6.5 Guys video in my earlier posting.
Below even a cheap Lee full length die can produce cases with less neck runout than Redding bushing dies. So remember the bushing floats, it can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. Meaning the more you reduce the neck diameter with a bushing die the greater the chance it will induce neck runout. And again this is why the Lee collet die is more popular with off the shelf factory rifles with chambers that have larger neck diameters.
bigedp51
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The Whidden custom die website sells expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter. Meaning you do not need a bushing die to change neck tension and you can also use an expander die.
So again if you do not neck turn your case necks you will need the expander to push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck.
Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/
So again if you do not neck turn your case necks you will need the expander to push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck.
Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/
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Wolf76
Well-Known Member
I don't see a reason to leave accuracy on the table.
If you could have a consistent .5 moa gun or a .75 moa gun, which one would you choose?
I say that with the perspective of $50-100, isn't that big of a deal. $2K to get a 1/4 moa improvement isn't worth it in my world.
If you could have a consistent .5 moa gun or a .75 moa gun, which one would you choose?
I say that with the perspective of $50-100, isn't that big of a deal. $2K to get a 1/4 moa improvement isn't worth it in my world.
I don't see a need for a bushing die. I have machined some pins for a mandrel setup to push into the case neck for uniformity. Worked well for me.
I would like to see a comparison on paper between a mandrel setup and bushing dies.
I would like to see a comparison on paper between a mandrel setup and bushing dies.
Chuck32571
Well-Known Member
Down the road you may have a change of heart and get more involved in longer distances. Having a bushing die already on hand would be a plus.
You can be involved in shooting long range and shoot very accurately without bushing dies if you have a method of getting consistent neck tension.
Creedmoor shooter
Well-Known Member
You dont technically need bushing dies. It's just one of those things that once you have them, you never go back. Once I started neck turning and using bushing dies there was a noticeable difference in my ammo consistency.
bigedp51
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The key words above are "neck turning" and then not needing to use a expander.
And if you neck turn the case neck is going to expand that much more when fired. And then it will need to be reduced in diameter even more using a bushing die. And if you neck turn then you have to deal with downuts as the brass flows upward into the case neck.
And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get more concentric resized cases with non-bushing full length dies.
Below is a Redding bushing die cutaway, now look at the clearance on the sides of the bushing and die body. This bushing side clearance is how much the bushing can move from side to side and tilt when sizing the neck and inducing neck runout. And the red arrow shows the area not sized by the bushing.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity Problems
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems
We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.
An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.
Question: Do I need to use the expander button that came with my Type "S" Die?
Answer: It is advisable to use an expander button to maintain consistent neck tension if the case necks have not been turned to a uniform wall thickness. However, the expander button can be replaced with the Decapping Pin Retainer (included with your Type "S" Die) if the user does not wish to use an expander button. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
My words, just because you buy an expensive bushing die doesn't mean you will have more concentric cases and make better ammo.
And again bushing dies work best with neck turned brass in custom tight neck chambers. Meaning you are not gaining anything by neck turning in factory SAAMI chambers. And this is because you end up working the case neck just as much as a standard non-bushing die does.
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Some might disagree but buy the Lee Die set with the full length and collet resizer. does sub 1/2 moa for me.
Bigeclipse
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I can't find One in 6.5prc
Creedmoor shooter
Well-Known Member
Well I can tell you my runout on my ammo neck turning and using a bushing dies (without expander button) runs .002 or less runout. I must be doing something right.The key words above are "neck turning" and then not needing to use a expander.
And if you neck turn the case neck is going to expand that much more when fired. And then it will need to be reduced in diameter even more using a bushing die. And if you neck turn then you have to deal with downuts as the brass flows upward into the case neck.
And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get more concentric resized cases with non-bushing full length dies.
Below is a Redding bushing die cutaway, now look at the clearance on the sides of the bushing and die body. This bushing side clearance is how much the bushing can move from side to side and tilt when sizing the neck and inducing neck runout. And the red arrow shows the area not sized by the bushing.
Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity Problems
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems
We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.
An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.
Question: Do I need to use the expander button that came with my Type "S" Die?
Answer: It is advisable to use an expander button to maintain consistent neck tension if the case necks have not been turned to a uniform wall thickness. However, the expander button can be replaced with the Decapping Pin Retainer (included with your Type "S" Die) if the user does not wish to use an expander button. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.
My words, just because you buy an expensive bushing die doesn't mean you will have more concentric cases and make better ammo.
