Berger Bullets vs TSX bullets

[4LClover]

Berger has a great reputation for target bullets but no reputation for hunting bullets. It seems that they have done a good job of convincing people that a bullet that fragments into 1000 pieces is a great hunting bullet.

Strange that Barnes hasn't advertised the use of the varmint grenade as a big game bullet. That would be because it isn't.

Yes, I have had mixed results with the accuracy of TSX bullets (like most bullets). They seem to be sensitive to seating depth. Nevertheless, several of my rifles shoot them well and they go through anything, and have made quick kills on everything I have shot them with. I don't have to worry about eating lead either.

Ask yourself, if you are hunting in bear country, what would you rather have in your chamber? Give me a TSX, Swift or Partition any day. Using a target bullet in this environment is about as clever as carrying bacon in your pack.

If you are an experienced hunter then you have hit heavy bone several times on a variety of animals. If the bullet can't penetrate the bone then you have a wounded animal on your hands. If that animal has teeth and claws, you may become a turd.

 

[Tony 4]

I have used both on many animals ranging from couse deer to elk, both perform well but with the Barnes TTSX I have never had an animal take a step.
The Barnes even at close range (30 yds) out of a 300 WBY Mag shooting 3515 fps on a black bear in the neck (did not hit bone) droped him in his tracks and the exit wound was huge!
The problem I have had with the Bergers is that they seem to like the lands. I can not get the one hole groups with out them touching them. This is usless in my long throated Weatherby's.
I load for about 45 or better long range hunters and have never had a complaint with the Barnes TTSX. Longest on video shot was a Javelina at 1277 yds.

 

[T3-OleMan]

I have used both on many animals ranging from couse deer to elk, both perform well but with the Barnes TTSX I have never had an animal take a step.
/......................................................................................................../
I load for about 45 or better long range hunters and have never had a complaint with the Barnes TTSX. Longest on video shot was a Javelina at 1277 yds.

Tony 4, Do you have any info on the fairly new-338WM-Hornady GMXs 185s vs the TTSX & MRX in 185 and 225-or any Cal.?

Hope adding this is not considered hijacking a 5 YR OLD thread. I got's to know.
Thanks

 

[FAL Shot]

Instead of trying to decide if you will load your rifle with a hard or soft hunting bullet, why not do what I do. The first three bullets into the magazine are long soft high BC bullets for long range shots. The last two bullets loaded are a Partition or a GameKing, depending where I am hunting and what might show up at close range unexpectedly.

If you are in bear country (Partition) or in mountain lion country (GameKing), then you have the bullet on hand and in the chamber for the job if attacked, and a spare if you miss. You will probably not get more than two chances.

If you come upon long range game, you have plenty of time to eject two rounds and chamber one of your long range rounds. If you are hunting in wide open prairie or from a tree stand, then there is no need to have hard bullets in your chamber or mag. Would still be a good idea to have some handy for your walk out if going through country with hiding cover.

The problem is finding two bullets and a load that will work together to the same or very near zero. Mine both zero at 200 yards, which is their crossover point. Further than that....use soft bullet. Closer than that....use harder bullet.

In .224 caliber, the two bullets are the Swift Scirocco II 75 grain and the Hornady Match 75 grain BTHP. They take slightly different powder loads as they have slightly different BC's.

In 7mm Caliber, the two bullets are Hornady A-Max 162 grain and the Sierra 140 GameKing. I would have preferred the 150 GameKing, but I had a couple boxes of the 140 GameKings on hand. Powder loads are again different to get the same zero at 200 yards. This is a prairie combo.

Another combo in 7mm caliber, the two bullets are Norma 150 SP factory loads and Nosler 150 Partition handloads. The crossover point is closer, at 100 yards, as this is a woods combo for closer shots. The zero matchup isn't as good, as it is impossible to match Norma factory loads due to their proprietary powder. As the Nosler Partition would be used 100 yards or closer, the small difference in zero does not matter. It is to have an unquestioned penetration round for whatever comes up at close range. This is a woods combo.

The .308 caliber combo is Nosler 150 BT and Nosler 165 Accubond. These are loaded into two separate magazines, as they are for a semi-auto rifle. The 165 Accubond mag is always in rifle, unless special circumstances would dictate a switch to 150 BT. Plastic tipped bullets are better than lead nosed bullets in autoloaders for increased feed reliability and freedom from nose deformation. The Accubond was made to perform very similarly to the Partition on game with better accuracy at long range similar to a BT. If I had a high likelihood of a bear encounter, the semi-auto rifle will be carried as it is far more reliable and faster loading than a bolt gun in the hands of a frightened person. I could just as well use the 165 Accubonds for everything, but I had hundreds of 150 BT I need to shoot up. Varmints will meet (meat) that bullet.

You could just as well partner Berger bullets with TSX bullets if your rifle shoots both well and you are able to arrive at a near zero match at your intended crossover point.

Be prepared to go through lots of bullets and several different powder combinations to get something similar worked up. It was a summer project for me. Sometimes a change in powder load does the trick, but likely you will need a powder load weight AND powder type difference between the two bullets.

 

[LR3]

I ve not used tsx much but used Bergers, smks , ab, for elk etc but this summer we used Tsx for some 25 plains game and a buffalo. Caliber 30-06 to 416. Except for buffalo and a sable with 30-06 shot abit forward all dropped quickly. Our Ph and other is Africa recommend tsx. I came away having gained great respect for Tsx. For africa you need good penetration and also good expansion with mass retention. All the Tsx bullets we recovered remained intact with good petals. The only one that did not was a bullet on the buffalo that tumbled after hitting a twig but still went through both lungs.

 

[Broz]

There are many members that prefer Bergers for hunting on this site as well as others.

This past season alone I have either been the shooter or have been with people shooting Bergers and here is the list.

Bull Elk 210gr Berger 425 yards never took a step. One shot
Large Bull Elk 210gr Berger 643 yards made it maybe 30 yards, One shot
2 Cow Elk one at 325 and one at 521 yards 210gr Bergers dropped in tracks one shot
Bull elk 511 yards 230gr Berger never left its bed. One shot rolled over dead.
Cow elk 400 yards 230gr Berger dropped in tracks one shot
Cow elk ( my wife shot) 300 gr Berger 816 yards one shot dropped in tracks
Cow elk 825 300gr Berger one shot dropped in tracks
Large Montana Mule deer Buck 893 yards 230 gr Berger Dropped in tracks one shot
Large Montana Mule Deer Buck 767 yards 300gr Berger one shot sprinted 50 yards nose dived Dead.
Spring Black Bear ( Boar) 378 yards 210 gr Berger one shot sprinted 25 yards
4 antelope in WY and one in MT all shot with 210 or 230 gr Bergers no tracking required.

This is just what I can remember from this past season. And again, I was there for every shot, and field dressing. I know what The Bergers do first hand. This is why I choose Bergers for hunting.

Jeff

 

[LapuaMile]

I have historically hunted deer with the Barnes Tsx, and have loved everything except slightly excessive copper fouling. They group great if seated .15 thousands off the lands, and they stop deer like lightning. The hydrostatic shock effect is key in dropping the deer.

This year I decided to take my 175 grain Berger vld hunting rounds to the forest. Let me tell you that I regularly shoot .5" groups at a hundred with this load from my DT SRS... I've also shot them out to 1000 yards with sub moa performance through wind and variable conditions. These bad boys can fly.

Here's where my Berger vld love review breaks down... Hunting at close range. I discovered (unfortunately) on 3 deer this year that they are not ideal when hunting in bush or at close range within 50 yards. I discovered that the thin jacket makes this bullet behave much like a Hornady vmax at close range.... Boom splat. Expansion is so explosive that the entrance wound is huge and looks like an exit wound. I hit the front shoulder on a doe this month, and the destruction was extensive, with the bullet exploding and fragmenting with a ton of superficial damage.myou read a lot of long range hunters using these to drop large game, with expansion occurring after the first few inches. I don't doubt this at all, as the velocity at hat pound probably reduces the initial explosive tendencies of a thin jacket.

I love the Berger bullets for shooting paper and steel, and probably even shooting a deer at 400+, but I won't be using them for forest hunting in Arkansas anymore. I'm going back to the Barnes TSX.

 

[300winniemag]

There are many members that prefer Bergers for hunting on this site as well as others.

This past season alone I have either been the shooter or have been with people shooting Bergers and here is the list.

Bull Elk 210gr Berger 425 yards never took a step. One shot
Large Bull Elk 210gr Berger 643 yards made it maybe 30 yards, One shot
2 Cow Elk one at 325 and one at 521 yards 210gr Bergers dropped in tracks one shot
Bull elk 511 yards 230gr Berger never left its bed. One shot rolled over dead.
Cow elk 400 yards 230gr Berger dropped in tracks one shot
Cow elk ( my wife shot) 300 gr Berger 816 yards one shot dropped in tracks
Cow elk 825 300gr Berger one shot dropped in tracks
Large Montana Mule deer Buck 893 yards 230 gr Berger Dropped in tracks one shot
Large Montana Mule Deer Buck 767 yards 300gr Berger one shot sprinted 50 yards nose dived Dead.
Spring Black Bear ( Boar) 378 yards 210 gr Berger one shot sprinted 25 yards
4 antelope in WY and one in MT all shot with 210 or 230 gr Bergers no tracking required.

This is just what I can remember from this past season. And again, I was there for every shot, and field dressing. I know what The Bergers do first hand. This is why I choose Bergers for hunting.

Jeff

IF you hav had so much expirience with the Vld i would like to know your oppinion on my elk last year. i (SHOT) the bigest bull elk last year that i have ever seen in the wild. I never was able to recover the bull the shot was only 50-100 yards very very easy shot i can shoot a dime time after time at these ranges. 3 of my buddies with me didnt have a tag in that area but went with me to help pack him out if i got one. they all watched the bull as i shot and all three said it was a direct hit behind the sholder and not just a grazing shot. Anyway the bull ran off i found a little hair and one single drop of blood which i wouldnt even consider a drop just a tiny speck on a leaf. I dont know what happend i am cirtan i hit it and my buddies that were with me were no rookies when it comes to hunting they have all seen their fair shair of animals shot.
My reason for asking is that i have heard so much about this berger vld and i lost the biggest elk ill ever get a shot at took me 22 years to draw this tag and i doubt ill get it agiain. i know bergers are good bullets but i just cant bring myself to use them again after my expirence.

 

[toddc]

IF you hav had so much expirience with the Vld i would like to know your oppinion on my elk last year. i (SHOT) the bigest bull elk last year that i have ever seen in the wild. I never was able to recover the bull the shot was only 50-100 yards very very easy shot i can shoot a dime time after time at these ranges. 3 of my buddies with me didnt have a tag in that area but went with me to help pack him out if i got one. they all watched the bull as i shot and all three said it was a direct hit behind the sholder and not just a grazing shot. Anyway the bull ran off i found a little hair and one single drop of blood which i wouldnt even consider a drop just a tiny speck on a leaf. I dont know what happend i am cirtan i hit it and my buddies that were with me were no rookies when it comes to hunting they have all seen their fair shair of animals shot.
My reason for asking is that i have heard so much about this berger vld and i lost the biggest elk ill ever get a shot at took me 22 years to draw this tag and i doubt ill get it agiain. i know bergers are good bullets but i just cant bring myself to use them again after my expirence.

If you read brozs post every sentence lists a high sd bullet. Long vld or target bullets are terminators. Short ines not so much. You didnt list what bullet you hit the elk with. A 210 30 cal or a 115 6mm and its a dead elk. The high bc bergers work on the old school principle of sd and not bonding etc. A long bullet will still penetrate even if it detonates...a short one wont. I use the heaviest bullet in a caliber and call it good. These bullets work because of physics not technology. A 115 6mm is much better at penetration than a 115 270. These are things our grandads knew and we need to learn. Elmer Keith knew some stuff...also why he liked 338s like most of us. If you hit that elk where you thought with a 243 and a coyote bullet it still should have died. Wierd things happen. Ive killed maybe 500 animals with bergers and never lost one/big cartridges tho. Other thaan my 6mm mostly a 300 ultra + a lot of 300smks.

 

[sportmuaythai]

I'd like to chime in, but it's just a humble opinion, and not a gospel. Of all American animals I've killed or seen killed, I think that elk is the toughest to kill, particularly when they are adrenalin surged. I've seen clips of very long range elk that dropped DRT, which surprised me very much. Then I realized that these bulls were not aware that they were targeted, and relaxed. I would assume that at 50-100 yards, the bull was extremely aware. On my first evening of my first African hunt, my PH showed me a very good impala buck amidst a herd of females and young males. The range was 40-50 yards, and the impala was intensely looking at me. At the shot, there was a big commotion and when the dust settled, no impala. No trace of blood either. However, my PH said that he saw the impala flinched at the shot. After futile search, my PH brought in his best tracker. This tracker carefully combed the area and traced the foot print of the buck. After almost half an hour, he found a tiny speck of blood ( probably similar to 300winniemag's) on a grass blade, quite a distance from where it was shot shot. Then no blood trail again for another 30-50 yards. Then the PH and tracker found more bloods along the trail and finally the impala. The autopsy showed that the top of his heart was blown off, but he kept running for about 200 yards before he succumbed.
A year later, I was shooting impala for leopard bait in Zambia. I asked my friend to bring Federal Premium cartridges, which just came out with Nosler PT. Unfortunately he brought Fed Hydrashock. I used to shoot for the front shoulder, and in horror, I watched several impalas had their shoulders blown, but the bullets did not penetrate. These had to be finished with rib shot into the lungs. These were easy 40-50 yards shots. I assume that you need to match the terminal speed to the bullet for it to do its job. While Bergers VLD may be flawless at 350-1000 yards, the TSX may do a better at <350 yards.

 

[300winniemag]

If you read brozs post every sentence lists a high sd bullet. Long vld or target bullets are terminators. Short ines not so much. You didnt list what bullet you hit the elk with. A 210 30 cal or a 115 6mm and its a dead elk. The high bc bergers work on the old school principle of sd and not bonding etc. A long bullet will still penetrate even if it detonates...a short one wont. I use the heaviest bullet in a caliber and call it good. These bullets work because of physics not technology. A 115 6mm is much better at penetration than a 115 270. These are things our grandads knew and we need to learn. Elmer Keith knew some stuff...also why he liked 338s like most of us. If you hit that elk where you thought with a 243 and a coyote bullet it still should have died. Wierd things happen. Ive killed maybe 500 animals with bergers and never lost one/big cartridges tho. Other thaan my 6mm mostly a 300 ultra + a lot of 300smks.

I shot the elk with a 210 grain berger VLD 300 win mag orang box realoded them myself this is my trusty elk gun and has only faild me this one time but previous years i shot barnes and got a itch to try something new so. iv wonderd since that day if i just decided to throw the one single difective bullet that berger made cause iv heard nothing but good about them but besides that shot it was the only time iv ever personaly seen a vld in action im not saying its a bad bullet but i just cant seem to bring myself to use that bullet again after my expirience.oh and ya the bull knew i was their bun only had about a second to ged adrenaline runing through his body before my shot broke he looked strate at me and my group. IV been hunting with these budies for at lest ten years i know they what it looks like and what it sounds like when a bullet hits an animal but i niglected to mention that they said they have never herd a bullet impact sound like that. Oh i just had a thought lightbulb

Dose anybody have expirence with bergers tumbling i just got to thinking maby my bullet tumbled for some unknown reason for it was a kneeling shot but their was a clear shot to the elk no trees or brush in the way of the bullet.

 

[Broz]

IF you hav had so much expirience with the Vld i would like to know your oppinion on my elk last year. i (SHOT) the bigest bull elk last year that i have ever seen in the wild. I never was able to recover the bull the shot was only 50-100 yards very very easy shot i can shoot a dime time after time at these ranges. 3 of my buddies with me didnt have a tag in that area but went with me to help pack him out if i got one. they all watched the bull as i shot and all three said it was a direct hit behind the sholder and not just a grazing shot. Anyway the bull ran off i found a little hair and one single drop of blood which i wouldnt even consider a drop just a tiny speck on a leaf. I dont know what happend i am cirtan i hit it and my buddies that were with me were no rookies when it comes to hunting they have all seen their fair shair of animals shot.
My reason for asking is that i have heard so much about this berger vld and i lost the biggest elk ill ever get a shot at took me 22 years to draw this tag and i doubt ill get it agiain. i know bergers are good bullets but i just cant bring myself to use them again after my expirence.

Sorry to hear of your lost Bull. Obviously I can not tell you what happened to your bull. I was not there. But what I posted ARE REAL experiences of mine from just this past season. I can tell you about them as every single one was dead with in feet of the shot. I have plenty of Pics if you want to see dead elk, deer and bear.

Jeff

 

[300winniemag]

Sorry to hear of your lost Bull. Obviously I can not tell you what happened to your bull. I was not there. But what I posted ARE REAL experiences of mine from just this past season. I can tell you about them as every single one was dead with in feet of the shot. I have plenty of Pics if you want to see dead elk, deer and bear.

Jeff

Oh no i believe you like i said i just was wondering if you or anybody els has had any expirinces like i had here like i said iv herd nothing but good its just something thats haunted me since than day knowing i wounded the bull for sure but was never able to recovor it

 

[LapuaMile]

I think my experiences earlier in this thread (few pages back) validate your findings on the lack of Berger VLD performance at close range.

It makes perfect sense that the Berger VLD jacket construction on these bullets would enable them to perform exceedingly well at long range (lower velocities), yet not well at close range due to over-expansion and extreme fragmentation.

I saw it this year on deer at 50 yards. One photo on my recovered deer illustrates the effect via the entrance wound, and the photos I don't have of 2 unrecovered deer speak to the rest...ha.

Don't get me wrong... The Berger VLDs are my absolute favorite for long range steel shooting, and even long range hunting. Their quality of construction is unsurpassed. That said, if hunting within 200 yards I would definitely go with either a Barnes TSX or Nosler Accubond.