Berger Bullets needs your advice - please help

I prefer Berger Bullets pack size of:

  • 50 per pack

    Votes: 162 12.1%
  • 100 per pack

    Votes: 1,174 87.9%

  • Total voters
    1,336
Then maybe they could be weight sorted so that all 100 are the same weight? even if that weight is 175.2 or whatever as long as they are all equal weight. This would increase your consistancy.

Dave,

The effect of weight variation on performance is a commonly misunderstood concept and rightfully so. It is reasonable to believe that if everything were precisely the same that performance will be as optimized as is possible. Although this seems reasonable it is rather true that certain characteristics can vary and produce little to no negative influence on performance.

You don't need to take my word for it as the test for this is simple and will give you a clear result. If you (or anyone) are interested in testing this situation it takes 60 shots to produce a clear result. You can use fewer shots but the fewer you use the less certain you'll be of the results.

I recommend that you read all the information below before you start sorting. You'll be working to gather bullets into the four following groups:

The first group consists of bullets that are exactly the same weight as each other and are the average weight of the population. Example: When you weigh the bullets and find that they run from 174.9 grains to 175.4 grains, you want bullets that weigh the average or 175.2 grains. You need 20 each.

The second group consists of bullets that are exactly the same weight as each other and are the lightest that you find in the bullets you sorted. Since the number of bullets at the extreme edges of the population will be smaller you can use bullets that are more plentiful but not quite on the edge of the weight you find when you sort them. Example: Even though you found a bullet that weighs 174.7 grains it may be the only one so don't use this as your lightest weight group but rather use 174.9 grain bullets of which there are more available. You need 20 each.

The third group consists of bullets that are exactly the same weight as each other and are the heaviest that you find in the bullets you sorted. The same situation that applied to the light group applies to this group. Use a weight that is the heaviest and has enough bullets in it to conduct this test. You need 20 each.

The fourth group consists of 5 bullets from each of the other three groups. After you have gathered together 20 bullets each of the other three groups, take five bullets from each of these three groups and blend these bullets together to make up the fourth group of bullets.

At this point you will have four groups of 15 bullets each. Three of these groups have bullets that are exactly the same weight but each group represents the lightest, average and heaviest weights of the bullets you sorted. The other group is a mixture of all three groups. It is important that you blend the bullets in the fourth group together so that you don't know which 5 are light, average or heavy.

The most important part of this test is that you are very careful to keep the groups separated and clearly identified. This is the only way to ensure that you will trust the results.

Load ammo using the four groups of bullets keeping them separated and clearly marked. All the ammo using all four groups of bullets needs to be loaded the same way, using the same components. When you've finished loading the ammo it is time to go to the range.

There are a few different ways you can fire the groups for this test. The first is to simply rotate between the groups and shoot at separate target bulls. In this test you want to shoot each of the four weight groups by shooting 5 separate groups that are 3 shots each (15 shots). You will end up with 20 bulls, each of which will have one 3 shot group. It is best if you rotate between the four weight groups as you shoot to even out the effects of changing wind conditions on your results.

NOTE: 3 shot groups are better for testing equipment and load than 5 shot groups. I was taught by a prominent short range BR Champion that "3 shots tests the equipment, 5 shots tests the shooter". I've found this to be true in my own shooting and testing.

An alternative way to shoot the groups involves covering the tips of the bullets with different colored marker ink. This allows you to mix the ammo and shoot the bullets of the different groups at the same time and into the same target bull. The ink on the tips of the bullets will allow you to identify which group each shot was from. Frankly, I believe this is the better testing method since no weight group gets the advantage of a brief let up or stabilization of the wind. By color marking the bullets you can shoot one 12 shot group on one bull which will consist of 3 shots from each weight group.

I recommend that you mark up a few and try them first to make sure you are transferring the color to the target effectively. It will be a bummer to put dozens of shots downrange and then learn that you didn't get the ink transferring to the target properly. Keep in mind that you shouldn't shoot all 60 shots into one target bull but using this method you can shoot 12 shots into one bull. Also, shooting at longer range will make it easier to identify the color of individual shots if you use this method.

I will make the prediction that all the bullets will group in generally the same area. There will be no discernable and consistent increased performance that can be clearly identified as existing within any of the four weight groups. In fact the fourth group will shoot as well as the other three even though these bullets are of mixed weight. It will also be observed that the groups end up in the same general location on the target. In other words, you won't find that the lightest group prints higher (or lower depending on how far you shoot) when the difference in weight between the bullets is this small.

The truth is that weight differences at this level (+/- 0.3 grains in bullets 150 grains or heavier) have very little if any influence on flight performance. Factors such as drag, balance around the axis and dimensional consistency influence performance to a much greater degree than the actual weight of the bullet. In the end you can be confident that bullets that fall within our tolerances will perform as expected. Having said this, I still believe that sorting is not a waste of time. I'm not saying that you need to break the bullets up into very tight weight groups but rather I suggest sorting to ensure that you don't have an anomalous bullet that falls far outside the tolerance which can effect performance. We work hard to keep tight weight tolerance control but to say that an odd weight bullet does not get through from time to time is not realistic or the truth.

I realize this is a long response to your post but this is something that comes up often so I wanted to take this opportunity to expand on this subject for the sake of others who are reading this thread and who aren't aware of this situation.

Regards,
Eric
 
I have another question for those answering this poll. There are a number of posters asking for 500 count boxes. Adding a 500 count pack to our line is not difficult on our end but it can complicate things for our resellers. To add this quantity pack as smoothly as possible it wll be helpful to know which specific bullets will be most popular in 500 packs.

To sum up: Please post which specific Berger Hunting bullets you'd like to see in 500 count packs.

Regards,
Eric
 
180 vld 7mm
168 vld 7mm
140 vld 7mm

140 vld 6.5mm
130 vld 6.5mm

22 cal vld match

would help me
7mm are just for hunting , but i go through 200-300 a yr.

6.5 mm i'd say 1500 yr.
22 500 yr.
 
Am indeed! Burned up a bunch of your 140s and 168s last weekend here at the MO State HP Silhouette Match. Everything fell properly, just so long as I managed to hit them, which is about all you can ask in Silhouette! Had some good results with your 82s at Perry the week before that, too.

Finally got the Silhouette pics for Miche, too and need to send them on to her. Looking forward to seeing Bryan and/or Miche at Raton or Lodi in the next few weeks. Hope all's going well for you and Walt, too!
 
I'd pay more per bullet for a small box of 25 (w/in reason of course:rolleyes:) for load development purposes. Once the load is selected then boxes of 500 would be in order.

Thanks for you efforts!!
 
100 ct boxes over 50's that's an easy one, I too would like 500 ct boxes for Hunting VLDs

My wish list:

168g 30 cal
190g 30 cal

168g 7mm
180g 7mm

130g 6.5mm

105g 6mm
 
Adding a 500 count pack to our line is not difficult on our end but it can complicate things for our resellers. To add this quantity pack as smoothly as possible it wll be helpful to know which specific bullets will be most popular in 500 packs.

To sum up: Please post which specific Berger Hunting bullets you'd like to see in 500 count packs.

Regards,
Eric

I'll suggest for consideration a couple of points.

- Offer the 500 count only through ordering direct from Berger - no reseller problems now - the economic consideration can never be left out. Pass on the tiny amount of savings of one box versus 5 boxes to the buyer or charge a slight bit more for lesser quantities if someone only wants 50 if you decide to offer that option.

- I'd be plumb happy if you supplied 500 ct. in bulk and forget the nice box - give me a heavy plastic bag or equivalent and I'm good to go - besides I've got enough nice yellow empty boxes under the bench that would finally have some good use for.

- .284 168VLD HUnting - 3 different rifles, I have 2 sons.

- I use 2 other bullets of yours but they do not merit a 500 ct. purchase
 
On the subject of bullets being available in smaller packs I can share that a new offering will be available in the coming few months. It is called Bullet Proof. What Bullet Proof is doing is offering Barnes, Nosler and Berger bullets in packs of 12 each.

They will initially be offered through Sinclair and other locations. If this is something that shooters embrace then they will continue to expand to other retail locations across the country. At a gun store, Bullet Proof will be displayed as a large spread of 50 of the most popular bullets from each brand. It is my understanding that as things go well, the number of bullet size, style and types will continue to increase.

Bullet Proof is also promoting segments on TV to educate shooters on the idea of tuning their rifle by switching bullets. We know that this is the fastest way to tune a rifle. You can always tune a particular bullet to shoot as well as it can. However, this takes time. Trying different bullets until you find one that shoots well with your current load saves a lot of time, effort and money (and it works). Once you know which bullet your gun likes then you can get them in larger quantities with the knowledge that they will work in your rifle.

We are excited to be part of this new offering and look forward to helping shooters see for themselves how switching bullets works in getting the best performance out of their rifle. Even if this means someone finds that another brand outshoots ours in a given rifle, they will have the best experience and will enjoy shooting. There are so many rifles in the world; I know that there are enough rifles that will pick Berger to keep us open.

Regards,
Eric
 
I get in trouble for saying more than I should on the forums but here it goes. We are in the process of testing the Hybrid design as a hunting bullet. Results are positive but we have just started. We will know in the next few months if the Hybrid design will work for hunting or not. If it does we will introduce these bullets in 2012.

Regards,
Eric
 
I know that this is a little off topic, but not really. What I would love to see most from Berger at the present time is a reloading manual. I know that it would have to free up some time on your side not having to always run Loads down for people then e-mail them out. A lot of my questions on bullets and loads for various calibers could be answered without having to drag you down at the plant/office.
 
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