Badlands Precision Bullets thread - From BC to terminal ballistics

@nralifer Just got done listening to Erik Cortina's interview with Chase Stroud. In it Chase mentions he's run into issue with specific barrel manufacturers (and the way they cut their barrels) not shooting solids well. Just curious if you've run into that as well and if there might be some makes to stay away from if you're specifically building a barrel around these bullets? Chase didn't name any names, which was fair.
P.S. he gives you and your bullets a nice shout out at the end.

As a matter of fact we have run into problems. It has hurt us. Have been very reluctant to call out any names. It is safer to name the barrels that we know work well with our bullets. The list is pretty long. Here goes: Bartlein, K&P, Benchmark, Pack Nor, Preferred, Lilja, McGowan, Douglas, Savage, Proof, Remington on their 1960s production rifles. Have not tried Hart or Shilen. Some of our customers may have used other brands that have worked well for them but have not told us, not that we necessarily needed to know. Very kind of Chase to mention us. He is a real stand up guy and very very honest. Superb teacher of the art of ELR shooting, I should add.
 
@nralifer do you find that the Badlands mono's tend to favor powders on the faster or slower side of the burn rate chart than when compared to lead core bullets?

For example, if a 250 class 338 cal berger likes ___ powder, would a 250 Bulldozer-2 have better results with a slower or faster burning powder?
 
@nralifer do you find that the Badlands mono's tend to favor powders on the faster or slower side of the burn rate chart than when compared to lead core bullets?

For example, if a 250 class 338 cal berger likes ___ powder, would a 250 Bulldozer-2 have better results with a slower or faster burning powder?
That is a hard question to answer definitely. The two bullets are fundamentally different. Even amongst copper solids the copper alloys used are different. Throat designs can vary a lot. My personal opinion is that our designs and the copper we use are probably better treated by slower burning powders in general because every bullet has to engage the rifling. It is at that instant where chamber pressures really elevate because there is resistance to bullet travel. Lead core bullets are "squishier" in that the lead core is much more ductile than copper so they tend to elongate while conforming to the rifling and grove diameters. Copper bullets are much less compressible so the rifling has to etch into the bullet bearing surface, and the reduced ductility of copper prevents less narrowing and elongation of the bullet as might occur with a lead core bullet. It takes more force to force a copper bullet into the rifling and so the pressure increase at that moment can be more rapid. The rapidity of that pressure rise is to a significant extent, dependent on the burn rate of the powder. A slower burn rate powder will cause that pressure spike to be "more gentle" affording the use of more powder increasing the potential of a higher bullet speed before seeing over pressure signs on the brass and primer. Another factor is the amount of energy/grain of powder that is formulated to burn at a certain rate. Double base powders have nitroglycerin which adds to the energy/grain of powder and thus achieve higher muzzle velocities for both types of bullets. Now, what do you consider "better". We can measure speed easily these days, but accuracy is just as or more important. It is entirely possible to have a lead core bullet shoot well, meaning accurately with one burn rate powder and terribly with another powder that shoots a copper bullet just as accurately. One thing is for sure, copper monolithic bullets withstand the stresses of acceleration, spin and impact much better than lead core bullets. It is possible to have very high quality lead core bullets disintegrate in flight if you push them and spin them fast enough to cause the jacket to swell and be blown away by the air rushing by the bullet. In general I would say, within a certain burn rate range appropriate for a given case, that the copper bullet would be benefited the best by the slower burning but higher energy powder. Bear in mind that this discussion is likely an oversimplification of what is happening because there are other factors such as neck design, lead angles, free bore lengths, barrel diameter tolerances, etc that we have not considered that could allow or disallow fast burning powders to work well with copper bullets.
 
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@nralifer do you find that the Badlands mono's tend to favor powders on the faster or slower side of the burn rate chart than when compared to lead core bullets?

For example, if a 250 class 338 cal berger likes ___ powder, would a 250 Bulldozer-2 have better results with a slower or faster burning powder?
If you take a 250gr 338 lead and 250gr 338 copper bullet and seat them to the same COAL, the copper bullet is a good bit further into the case because it's longer. Seating depth greatly effects peak pressure and also doesn't allow as much powder. Because of those two things, I've found, in general, that short grain powders that pack into a case more tightly work better and even better if they are double base powder to make up for the lack of space. For that reason, I would not just take a 338 lead bullet data and use it with a mono. Start with Barnes or the CX bullet data, not say Berger.
I make sure all my loads are under max pressure by modeling them in GRT instead of counting on brass to be really strong and compensate for overpressure. The nice thing about starting with GRT or Quickload is you'll know the top couple powders for velocity before you even shoot a bullet.
 
I should have given more fundamental details
Rifle
24" 9.4 twist proof barreled RBROS build

Components
Peterson 300 NM brass. Fireformed ( at least 10 firings) Ive used this same brass for multiple tests on different loads. It's been used and abused. Primer pockets still tight. Annealed each time with a AMP machine. Sized and bullets seated with a Whidden custom die set.
Federal 215 GM primers
Powder measured with a RCBS 1500 and cross checked with a A&D Newton EJ-123 High Precision Portable Scale
Seated the SDB-2 @.030 off the lands

I probably forgot something but that's the basics
That's good to know. Mine should be completed soon. My GS building custom dies, including hydraulic forming die. Mine is also a .338 NMI, 22" C6 1:8", and will be using Lapua .338 NM brass.
 
That is a hard question to answer definitely. The two bullets are fundamentally different. Even amongst copper solids the copper alloys used are different. Throat designs can vary a lot. My personal opinion is that our designs and the copper we use are probably better treated by slower burning powders in general because every bullet has to engage the rifling. It is at that instant where chamber pressures really elevate because there is resistance to bullet travel. Lead core bullets are "squishier" in that the lead core is much more ductile than copper so they tend to elongate while conforming to the rifling and grove diameters. Copper bullets are much less compressible so the rifling has to etch into the bullet bearing surface, and the reduced ductility of copper prevents less narrowing and elongation of the bullet as might occur with a lead core bullet. It takes more force to force a copper bullet into the rifling and so the pressure increase at that moment can be more rapid. The rapidity of that pressure rise is to a significant extent, dependent on the burn rate of the powder. A slower burn rate powder will cause that pressure spike to be "more gentle" affording the use of more powder increasing the potential of a higher bullet speed before seeing over pressure signs on the brass and primer. Another factor is the amount of energy/grain of powder that is formulated to burn at a certain rate. Double base powders have nitroglycerin which adds to the energy/grain of powder and thus achieve higher muzzle velocities for both types of bullets. Now, what do you consider "better". We can measure speed easily these days, but accuracy is just as or more important. It is entirely possible to have a lead core bullet shoot well, meaning accurately with one burn rate powder and terribly with another powder that shoots a copper bullet just as accurately. One thing is for sure, copper monolithic bullets withstand the stresses of acceleration, spin and impact much better than lead core bullets. It is possible to have very high quality lead core bullets disintegrate in flight if you push them and spin them fast enough to cause the jacket to swell and be blown away by the air rushing by the bullet. In general I would say, within a certain burn rate range appropriate for a given case, that the copper bullet would be benefited the best by the slower burning but higher energy powder. Bear in mind that this discussion is likely an oversimplification of what is happening because there are other factors such as neck design, lead angles, free bore lengths, barrel diameter tolerances, etc that we have not considered that could allow or disallow fast burning powders to work well with copper bullets.

Thank you for the detailed response and explanations sir! That's the exact kind of info I was hoping for. I know it's a tough question to answer with all variables to account. And having one powder work "better" per say than another leaves that to interpretation. I know this can go into the weeds real fast!

In my specific case, I am doing load development on my 338 Norma with 225 gr BD-2's. With the goal being to push the lighter mono faster, so long as good accuracy is retained. There's just not alot of info out there on 225 gr mono's in a 338 Norma.
 
Here is the start of my work on the .284 160 SBD-2's in a 28 Sherman, 26" Wilson barrel, 8T. I was running hot loads with Berger 195's getting 3168 fps with N570. My barrel took a beating on it but it is surprisingly accurate still. I have since switched goals for hunting and bullets. While taking deer, elk and antelope beyond 1000 yards has its place, it is not something I personally want to do anymore. So I have found my sweet spots of 830 yards and in. Closer the better. With that in mind and that I no longer use the bench for testing as I want to simulate hunting conditions as much as possible, here are my goals.

160 SBD-2's running 3100 fps or slightly faster using H1000. Keeping my barrel alive for as long as possible.

Hit 10" steel out 1000 yards with 80% hit rate, shorter distances need 100% hit rates with 5 shots.

I shoot from a tripod arca system. I mainly hunt at 6000ft and above.

At my range on the 7th and 33 degrees I was running the 160's 3128fps. My range has metal hanging at 539, 616 then out to 1059, 1132 and 1145. I need to go up in the hills to get to the 700 and 800 yard target setups. My first 5 shots at 539 steel were all hits. I could not tell my grouping since the road out to paint the targets was a mess. Seeing the hits in the scope was good enough for initial work. I had 5 hits at 616 as well.

These bullets fly great so far. I will test out to the farther targets next trip to the range. I will try to post photos as well. This performance should be similar for the 28 Noslers I have built. I will run the 160's out of some 7 SS's I have to build as well.

Hope this info helps anyone in the .284 crowd.
 
As a matter of fact we have run into problems. It has hurt us. Have been very reluctant to call out any names. It is safer to name the barrels that we know work well with our bullets. The list is pretty long. Here goes: Bartlein, K&P, Benchmark, Pack Nor, Preferred, Lilja, McGowan, Douglas, Savage, Proof, Remington on their 1960s production rifles. Have not tried Hart or Shilen. Some of our customers may have used other brands that have worked well for them but have not told us, not that we necessarily needed to know. Very kind of Chase to mention us. He is a real stand up guy and very very honest. Superb teacher of the art of ELR shooting, I should add.
Thanks! That's very good information to know, and I totally agree with naming the brands that work well.
 
Here is the start of my work on the .284 160 SBD-2's in a 28 Sherman, 26" Wilson barrel, 8T. I was running hot loads with Berger 195's getting 3168 fps with N570. My barrel took a beating on it but it is surprisingly accurate still. I have since switched goals for hunting and bullets. While taking deer, elk and antelope beyond 1000 yards has its place, it is not something I personally want to do anymore. So I have found my sweet spots of 830 yards and in. Closer the better. With that in mind and that I no longer use the bench for testing as I want to simulate hunting conditions as much as possible, here are my goals.

160 SBD-2's running 3100 fps or slightly faster using H1000. Keeping my barrel alive for as long as possible.

Hit 10" steel out 1000 yards with 80% hit rate, shorter distances need 100% hit rates with 5 shots.

I shoot from a tripod arca system. I mainly hunt at 6000ft and above.

At my range on the 7th and 33 degrees I was running the 160's 3128fps. My range has metal hanging at 539, 616 then out to 1059, 1132 and 1145. I need to go up in the hills to get to the 700 and 800 yard target setups. My first 5 shots at 539 steel were all hits. I could not tell my grouping since the road out to paint the targets was a mess. Seeing the hits in the scope was good enough for initial work. I had 5 hits at 616 as well.

These bullets fly great so far. I will test out to the farther targets next trip to the range. I will try to post photos as well. This performance should be similar for the 28 Noslers I have built. I will run the 160's out of some 7 SS's I have to build as well.

Hope this info helps anyone in the .284 crowd.
Why a 8 twist when the manufacturer says a 7 twist for the 160?

Doesn't this skew all results?

Also the terminal ballistics part of the ballistics trio are negative affected?
 
69363B7A-78ED-4FC8-B5C7-EED9E3EF2DAE.jpeg

Round #2 ready
 
Thank you for the detailed response and explanations sir! That's the exact kind of info I was hoping for. I know it's a tough question to answer with all variables to account. And having one powder work "better" per say than another leaves that to interpretation. I know this can go into the weeds real fast!

In my specific case, I am doing load development on my 338 Norma with 225 gr BD-2's. With the goal being to push the lighter mono faster, so long as good accuracy is retained. There's just not alot of info out there on 225 gr mono's in a 338 Norma.
If you needed a starting load you could use data for a 250 gr bullet and seat the 225 gr BD2 to 0.025-0.30" off the lands and use an intermediate power charge specified for the 250 gr bullet, then increase the charge until you get some indication of over pressure. A 1 shot for each charge increment should be enough.
 
As a matter of fact we have run into problems. It has hurt us. Have been very reluctant to call out any names. It is safer to name the barrels that we know work well with our bullets. The list is pretty long. Here goes: Bartlein, K&P, Benchmark, Pack Nor, Preferred, Lilja, McGowan, Douglas, Savage, Proof, Remington on their 1960s production rifles. Have not tried Hart or Shilen. Some of our customers may have used other brands that have worked well for them but have not told us, not that we necessarily needed to know. Very kind of Chase to mention us. He is a real stand up guy and very very honest. Superb teacher of the art of ELR shooting, I should add.
Perfect! I have two K&P's in the office and two more on the way, then another two to be ordered after they call about the second batch.

My Bartlein has done well with the Bulldozers out of my Norma. I can't complain at all.
 
Thank you for the detailed response and explanations sir! That's the exact kind of info I was hoping for. I know it's a tough question to answer with all variables to account. And having one powder work "better" per say than another leaves that to interpretation. I know this can go into the weeds real fast!

In my specific case, I am doing load development on my 338 Norma with 225 gr BD-2's. With the goal being to push the lighter mono faster, so long as good accuracy is retained. There's just not alot of info out there on 225 gr mono's in a 338 Norma.
You don't need to go fast with the 338 Norma. I was pushing the 275's at 2850 fps and it was lethal out to the 950 yard mark. Passed through a moose, and hit bone on the way out.
 
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