7mm Terminal Performance Issues? True or False?

[str8shoot]

As far as shot placement with different bullets at different velocities I couldn't agree more. Each bullet will perform differently at a different velocity, and each bullet has an ideal velocity range to get the most out it. It is up to the hunter to choose the right bullet for the gun and distance they are shooting. This is true of all calibers, not just the 7mm. I would be willing to bet that there just as many bullet failures in 30 cal as 7mm. There are many hunters out there shooting these big magnum 30 cals with light, fragile bullets at close range.
You tellin me that a 277 and a 308 cal will kill like lightning, but that 284 right in between is somehow incompetent? I'll continue collecting evidence to the contrary!

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Winmag, I appreciate you going against the masses and you have some valid points. If everybody agreed on here we wouldn't learn much because everybody would have had the same experiences.

He was asking about a starter rifle for his son and with proper bullets at close range I am sure he will be fine with a 7mm. I bought my son a 308 for his starter rifle. I think it is better all around than the new stuff it has been necked to. Bigger caliber, better blood trail and better bullet selection. His son will find bullets everywhere for the 308. Not everybody has 7mm-08. But that is just me. I have learned through many years that kill averages go up as caliber goes up. But still the right bullet in the right place is dead.

Back in the 70's when the new 1000 yard world record was set with the 7mm-300 wby everybody had to have one if they were worth anything at long range. I killed elk with mine over 1000 yards and bragged all over about it. Then Elmer Keith convinced me the 300 wby should be necked up to 338 and not down to 7mm for long range elk. I thought he was an idiot. I was the idiot, but not for long. Next year I had a custom 340 wby and there is absolutely no comparison hitting game with the big 338 over the 7mm or any other small caliber. Then I necked down the 378 wby to 338 and WOW!. A whole new world opened up. The 7mm and other small calibers will kill stuff long range with proper bullets and shot placement. But the larger calibers do it better because you have more room for error therefore the kill averages go up as caliber goes up. So, I see what your saying, but for a kid starter rifle I am sure it will work for him.

 

[Pdvdh]

I agree the .338 hits inflict greater trauma than the .308 hits, and the .308 hits greater trauma than the .284 hits on large game - as a rule of thumb. This results in the shooter witnessing greater on-game authority and effectiveness. The 338 hits on brown bear carry much more immediate affect than similar hits would with the 7mm.

The 460 Weatherby's would kill better than the 338s - I'd bet any money on it - out to 400 yds, with equivalent hits and equivalent bullets. The larger the diameter of the slugs, given reasonably equivalent sectional densities, the greater the physiological devastation to a large game animal's life support system.

Doesn't mean the 7mms don't kill, ethically and effectively. And for smaller sized game like deer, sometimes the 7mms will produce the instant lights-out kills with simply a solid body hit, just like a larger caliber cartridge might. And death doesn't come any deader than that, if you've ever witnessed it.

 

[Firecat]

So what have we learned from this post? Hmmmm? Some are Chevy fans, some are Ford fans and some are Dodge fans. Until someone can generate some stone cold scientific data about one calibers excellence vs. another's impotence I will continue on with my present course. Unfortunately many of those failed bullets and and lost animals will be just that. Lost. Unfortunately a lost animal is not available to tell us what was the failure. Was it bullet failure or was it Operator error/**** pore shot placement? There was a post on here just recently about a fellow who shot a spike bull across a canyon with his .338 edge and a 300 gr. SMK. http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/900-yard-elk-300-smk-338-edge-pictures-62221/ He hit the bull with a frontal shot and retrieved the bullet in the rear of the animal. The bullet did not expand at all. The next shot was different entirely. He shot it broad side and the bullet expanded violently. I'm sure that this was the 338 calibers fault.(I'm being sarcastic) No, I believe that the parameters of this shot was not ideal for any list of reasons. Who says that this particular bullet wasn't a cull do to the manufacturing or materials.

What is the end result? Choose the course that leads you as closely to your ideals as possible. Some need a magnum for that piece of mind and some do not. If you are able to find success with you choice then consider it mission accomplished. The 7mm has as large of a bullet selection available as any caliber on the market with the exception of some heavier bullets. Just like any other caliber, it must be realized what the expectation is and its ability to fulfill that expectation. I would not take my 94' GMC 4x4 to a sled pull expecting to run with top fuel tractors. However it is a mighty fine daily driver and pulls the quads anywhere within reason while getting decent fuel mileage.

If the rifle is to be used for a youth getting started. I would select a cartridge that would be an absolute joy for that youngster to shoot. He will learn good form and habits and not be made afraid to pull the trigger. As he learns the fundamentals of shooting he will gain that desire to go more often. As his ability increases so can his power so to speak. I believe that a 7mm-08 would be an excellent choice for a youth. Again, with proper bullet selection it will serve him well for many purposes and many years. Another great caliber to be considered would be the 260 Remington.

 

[Pdvdh]

So what have we learned from this Thread? Hmmmm?

Long range hunters are ritualistically stubborn, have a crotchety mean streak to them, and are unlikely to take much doo-doo from anyone! gun) gun)

 

[winmag]

As far as shot placement with different bullets at different velocities I couldn't agree more. Each bullet will perform differently at a different velocity, and each bullet has an ideal velocity range to get the most out it. It is up to the hunter to choose the right bullet for the gun and distance they are shooting.
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Agreed.
My point is what if your distance is varried? I never said the 7mm wouldnt do the job. I said it has proven to do the job for many people, but it has consistantly let people down too.
Think of it as a holley carburater. Good for 1 thing at a time, but they suck as a daily driver.
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This is true of all calibers, not just the 7mm. I would be willing to bet that there just as many bullet failures in 30 cal as 7mm.
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Highly unlikely, with equaly balistically educated people making the bullet selection for velocity, intended use, and distance, due to the VAST array of bullets manufactured in the 30 cal, vs the , few manufactured in 7mm? With a 30 cal You have 55gr accelerators to 220gr. You can pick a bullet for 30-30 velocities or 30-06, or 300rum, or 30-378. From gopher to griz, near or far. That cant be said of the 7mm in an equal comparison. There is not enough selection.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------There are many hunters out there shooting these big magnum 30 cals with light, fragile bullets at close range.
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Only a balistically uneducated person would make a bullet choice like that.
If your set up for L/R. AND can take full advantage of the high BC, then why choose a 7mm over a 6.5? ............
Answer; cause the 7mm kills better due to bullet wt, mass, velocity, intended use, and range on critters................ Wich is EXACTLY my point for a 30 cal over a 7mm ESPECIALLY for a starter rifle.

Look I said they work fine for some folks. OBVIOUSLY your one of them. I hope you never experience what seems to be common to so many 7mm shooters. I realy do wish you the best of luck, and success.
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You tellin me that a 277 and a 308 cal will kill like lightning, but that 284 right in between is somehow incompetent? I'll continue collecting evidence to the contrary![/QUOTE------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im telling you that from my experience there is NO WAY Id choose a 7mm anything over a 30 cal for my style of hunting. Nor for a first time hunter, or new shooter. I have seen time and time again where a 7mm fails at close range. Why would I want to do that to myself or someone else.
Id actually prefer a 270 in most cases over a 7mm at close range, because even with limmited bullet selection they have proven to me to be more effective, and trustworthy for my style of hunting. They just work where the 7mm has consistantly let me down.

Scott E,
For newer shooters who will rarely even get to 500 yards I belive you are handicapping yourself with a 7mm over a 308 due to bullet selection and performance.
Str8shoot
You go ahead and collect all the "evidence" you want. You can PM it to me if youd like, instead of mucking up a decent thread with ruffled feathers. But My mind is made up on the 7mm. Ive seen, and experienced too many failures to trust it.
I realy do hope you continue to have success with yours, but dont try and tell me its best. There is no such thing. There are just better for situation choices. Wich is exactly why I feel the way I do, and posted accordingly. Not to ruffle yours or anyone elses feathers. So take a step back and feel free to PM me if you want to hash it over more (in a continued polite mannor such as this.) No need to get heated.

LTLR
I agree with everything you said. Even about the part of a 7mm-08 being ( ok ) for a first timer, But I agree more with the 308 being a far better choice. and I appreciate the easy out you non chalantly offered me concerning the subject in your post. Thank you.

 

[mike33]

So with everything being said, the jury tells dad to give the kid a 338 edge and nfx scope for first gun. Think dad and kid will be happy with 7-08.
Mike

 

[bigngreen]

For a youngster I would start them out with a 243 over anything out there, low recoil, very good effective bullet selection for any game and flat shooting so it is more forgiving for a younger shooter, keep up inside 300yrds on elk and your GTG. Take the 7mm-08 and you really have a hard time keeping any of the good, heavy bullets inside there effective functional speed and you get more recoil. If you shoot a 140gr bullet a 270 will smoke it. I would however choose a 7mm-08 over any other 7mm for deer just because of the blow up factor.

I really wish I would have keep track of my polling numbers when I ran the meat shop, I got to see 1500+ head of deer, elk and antelope and take them apart. This alone is enough for me to never shoot a 7mm, if I would have kept track of it I would have had solid data to back it up with. I will say that, ya there is a difference in how a 277 or a 30 cal bullet reacts, all bullets have a little thinner or thicker construction by cal and you have a shank length to nose ratio and frontal area differences, I do not know what it is but there is something.

I get to see or help with killing anywhere from 30-75 elk a year and about half that in deer and every year I have deal with elk shot with a 7mm, I get in on a lot of elk killing and cutting, more than average and my favorite rifle to see guys shoot are 243's, 270's, 30-06, 300 mag and large 338's not to include 338win mag. I do have a soft place for 270's but for the most part I like what saves me work and kills elk.
Out of all the guys I know who have killed 30+elk there is not a single 7mm in the lot, that says a lot to me, 98% of these guys have no concern about ballistics or BC but they know what kills animals with the least amount of meat damage, old school guys!! Now I understand that there are a lot of guys who have zero problems with a 7mm and I say ROCK ON, after 20-30 elk you start to know your gun and you GTG, same with deer after a couple truck loads you know your gun and it's limits no problems!

Shot placement will all way be #1 no mater what the rifle, I say let a kids start shooting with what THEY like and shoot the best, even if it is a 7mm, make it their gun and make it so they love shoot in that rifle and are bugging you to go shoot it and they will put the smack down on game so the old man can take pics!!! gun)

This thread could be epic

 

[Pdvdh]

I will say that, ya there is a difference in how a 277 or a 30 cal bullet reacts, all bullets have a little thinner or thicker construction by cal and you have a shank length to nose ratio and frontal area differences, I do not know what it is but there is something. gun)

This thread could be epic

I know what it is. The technical term is Voo Doo. Synonymous with black magic and pixie dust.

sorry about that... I think it's really that extra 0.007" in bullet diameter that is detrimental to the .284s on-game performance.

That outdoor editor of prior days? Jack O'Conner wasn't it? The writer that made the .270 Win the holy grail of cartridges for sheep hunters. Towards the end of his career, Jack admitted to some close friends that the .280 Remington was actually a better cartridge than the .270 Winchester. But a good part of his active career and reputation was based on pumping the .270 Win. Just think if Jack had glorified the .280 Remington all those years. We would never have known that the .270 was really the better caliber mated up to an 06-sized casing.

 

[Scot E]

Guys,

Thanks for all the responses and opinions! I realize it is easy to get heated over topics like "does your caliber suck at killing things" which I imagine is how some guys took part of my original post. But that really wasn't my intent at all. I love this site because of the passion and stubbornness of its members due to the love of the sport! It really is what makes this site special IMO.

There were 2 main points to my original post, 1. to determine if there is any validity to there being terminal performance issues with 7mm's (and no, not because they are .284 instead of .264 or.308 but because of the characteristics that the shape, weight, density, expansion, construction and wide range of power levels may possibly have to do with affecting terminal effectiveness)
2. to get a feel for if a lower powered 7mm like the 7-08 for my son should make it on my short list.

I would really prefer that everyone keep their opinions and experiences on this thread and not in PM form but lets just all take a deep breath and not loose our cool. I think the info given here is valuable and needs to be shared. Like LTLR mentioned there would be nothing to learn if all of our experiences were the same.

I personally have a feeling that there is some merit to the 7mm issue regarding terminal performance but I also recognize that there are many guys here that I have learned to respect that think highly of them. There are also entire business's that have chosen this caliber as there go to round. Greybull comes to mind. You can't tell me that John and the boys don't know a thing or 2 about performance on game animals and have seen big numbers to back up their claims. Still they use a specific cartridge, 7mm RM, and 1 bullet that they have determined to work well for their style of shooting.

The more I read opinions the more I am beginning to think that it may be juggling of short vs. long range, high vs low power, that may give the 7mm some issues is some cases especially with guys that may not spend as much time reviewing the details of BC, velocity expansion, intended game toughness, etc.

I have really enjoyed this read guys. Thanks for sharing your time and keep them coming if there is more to share!

 

[Pdvdh]

Not to be the spoiler, but I've come to conclude there isn't really a lot of difference between similar sized calibers out of similar sized cartridges for shots on game out to ~ 350 yds. Not near as much as hunters and shooters tend to make of it. It makes for good campfire talk, but I don't really give the argument & opinions much credibility. Like the difference between a 300 WSM and a 300 Win Mag. Hunter's will differ until they turn blue in the face, in spite of the fact that there is really very little difference between the two. Not enough to notice any difference in on-game performance. Hunters, owners, and shooters will spend hours coming up with the rationale as to why one is better than the other.

Shoot a similar weight Nosler Accubond out of .264, .277, .284, or .308 caliber rifle into a deer-sized game animal from a similar-sized cartridge, and I don't believe the hunter shooting the weapon would be able to predict which caliber bullet was in use based on the animal's response, or by inspecting the internal wound channel in the animal.

I believe there is nothing magical about individual calibers or cartridges - certainly not for a 12 or 13-year old, and that there are any number of cartridges that would be a perfect fit for your son. You might have him shoot a few different cartridges, solely to gain some insight into his acceptance and tolerance of muzzle blast and recoil. As others have mentioned, I would rather error on under-gunning, than over-gunning, a youngster and new-comer to the shooting sports. Many full grown men have difficulty overcoming flinching, which is a natural response to ear-drum piercing muzzle blast, and the associated kick on the shoulder.

So although it makes for interesting discussion, there's at least a half a dozen different cartridges that would be perfectly suited for a 12-year old. More than that if you will be reloading for the selected cartridge.

 

[str8shoot]

This is a great thread,and i'm glad to participate. Bigngreen: I'm not heated but some of your statements need to be addressed. You are really trying to make it sound like the 7mm is the worst choice out there.

For a youngster I would start them out with a 243 over anything out there, low recoil, very good effective bullet selection for any game and flat shooting so it is more forgiving for a younger shooter, keep up inside 300yrds on elk and your GTG. Take the 7mm-08 and you really have a hard time keeping any of the good, heavy bullets inside there effective functional speed and you get more recoil. If you shoot a 140gr bullet a 270 will smoke it. I would however choose a 7mm-08 over any other 7mm for deer just because of the blow up factor. [/QUOTE

7mms are consistent failures but a 243 is GTG out to 300 yards... on ELK?

 

[liltank]

My brother has a 7mmRM that he has use for 20yrs. When it goes bang, there is a dead dear with in 10yrds of where it was hit. Never once has he lost a deer.

Tank

 

[Scot E]

Shoot a similar weight Nosler Accubond out of .264, .277, .284, or .308 caliber rifle into a deer-sized game animal from a similar-sized cartridge, and I don't believe the hunter shooting the weapon would be able to predict which caliber bullet was in use based on the animal's response, or by inspecting the internal wound channel in the animal.

S.

Oh sure! Look how elitist and big caliber oriented you are. How dare you leave the .25 out of that list! Just playin' with ya!