7mm Terminal Performance Issues? True or False?

[winmag]

NZ Longranger,
Hopefully this is my last post on this thread, as it seems like beating my head against a log, or something about as enjoyable anyway,
But heres why I choose the 270 over the 7mm.
1. compared to a 7-08, the 270 has the ability to push heavy for caliber bullets better, over a wider range of yardage, at a reasonable, yet forgiveable velocity.
2. Over the 7mag because I have experienced pencil holes as well as blown up bullets with the 7mag at short/mid range, and have not with the 270, at least not yet.....
3. taking into consideration the range average for a youngster, usually 0 to 5-600 yards or less, (wich is very simmilar to my usual personal hunting style) why use the 7mag? Especially where recoil is concerned.
4. for allround where longer ranges are an option, I didnt say Id choose a 270 over a 7mag, I said Id go with a 300, and for dedicated long range only I said Id use a 338.
It just seems most sensible to me to choose what I trust based on my experience. I dont have any "science" to back up why the 270 seems to work well for me, and why the 7mm has let me (& others) down at close range. I just go with what I have experienced. It seems to me for close range the 270 is more forgiving than the 7mag, and blows the doors off the 7-08.
Personally, I prefer a 270 for short/mid range. I prefer a 30 for allround/all range-within reason/ all critter rifle, and a 338 for Dedicated L/R.

My comment on the 7mm being "job specific" was simply refering to the obvious success its had at L/R work.(specifically the 7mag, and those in the same league),
It also boiled down to the 7-08 being overshadowed by so many other cartriges that it doesnt have much room to stand out, so why bother with it? was my philosophy.
On the flip side of the coin, there have been many people who have had epic failures with the 7mag so IMO, for it to shine it has a niche as a L/R cartrige, and may as well be used as such instead of an allround/allrange/all critter cartrige. IMO there are better cartriges, and calibers for that.
I apreciate your experience with the amount of critters youve taken with it, but Im not bashing what you have personally whitnessed and calling it un-credible, even though I dont care for the caliber, nor am I calling on you to use science to prove what youve whitnessed. Without fully understanding the base on wich my opinion was formed, you jumped the gun a bit and put words into my mouth that I didnt say. However after re-reading my post, I can see where one may be able to jump to that conclusion, so thats partly my fault. I apologise for any confusion.
Hopefully that cleared up any confusion on my end.
Oh, off topic, I just watched the video GET AMONGST IT. Do you happen to know wich NZ member of L/R/H I was watching on that movie? Just curious is all.

 

[Firecat]

WinMag I would hope that it was not the intentions of others to call you out. I think your opinion is relevant. However, it differs greatly from my own. I too wonder about how many people hunt and if they're success or lack thereof is based on their style of hunting. My post earlier eludes to the fact that lost animals are not around to tell us what really happened. I wonder if at times the gun or in this case the caliber is to blame so that the hunter doesn't have to assume the responsibility which may likely be theirs.

I live in Southern Utah where the shots can be as far as you would ever hope them to be and within the same 15 minutes find yourself having a shot less than twenty yards away. This is the case on both deer and elk. Unfortunately As I get deeper into the long range hunting my portfolio of long range kills will increase but for now the great majority of the things that I have shot have been less than 350 yards with a tremendous amount of them under 100 yards. It's the way we hunted in our family that lent itself to these conditions. We cover miles in the trees each year hunting. Mostly making drives and pushing deer and elk to stationers. Just lately have I started to do the scouting and long range thing(Which is a blast might I add.) My dad has a 7mm Rem Mag in a Parker Hale which has been one of the most successful rifles in our family. I have watched deer literally picked up and moved by this cartridge when hit in the front shoulder. This was the motivation for my first high powered rifle being chambered in the 7mm Rem. Since the day I got mine when I turned 16 I have seen it do the same on occasion. Last year when a good friend was having some trust issues in his BAR(Caliber is not relevant but it wasn't a 7mm) I watched him use mine to shoot a muley at 180 yards with a 140 grn TSX. There were two hits. The bullet hitting the deer and the deer hitting the ground. I just have a hard time with the many different experiences that I have had with this caliber believing that it is somehow a black mark on the shooting industry or incapable of performing reliably. I currently own a 6mm Rem, 25-06 Rem, 270 win, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-06, 300 Win and several others. I do not tell you this to boast in any way. But, merely to let those know that my experience and options are not limited to one caliber that I believe to be the "Holy Grail." However I will tell you this much. Come Saturday when hunting season rolls around and I am able to fill either a buck mule deer tag or a Cow elk tag at any range from 20 to 600yards(Thats my current comfort zone) I will most likely reach past all others knowing of their potential and grab the 7 mag. I believe that my opinion on this one is unbiased as one might have. Do I believe the calibers that I mentioned above are exceptional? Absolutely or they wouldn't be in my gun cabinet. They were chosen with careful consideration and planning. If there were one of those that had ever let me down it would have been the 30-06. Sad too, ate tag soup because of it last season. That being said it could have been any list of reasons that things didn't go right. I do not believe for one moment that the 7mm caliber is job specific any more than any other caliber on the market. There is no reasonable or technical data that gives us an answer or even a hint to form this conclusion other than personal accounts. If the 7mm rem mag caliber was such a spectacular failure then why has it made RCBS's top 20 list for most dies sold? Many years it has finished far ahead of the venerable 300 win mag and 300 WSM. I understand that many of these could be sold to strictly target shooters, but i would be willing to bet that many more went to hunters. We all know that most target shooters, the serious ones anyway load with brands other than RCBS(thats another discussion for another day).

 

[Derek M.]

I did not intend to call anyone out on anything for the record.

The 270 is my favorite caliber. I've experienced more controversy over that caliber than any other. Lots of boys in the south used it due to its popularity only to go trade it for a 308 or 30.06 because they said they were losing deer with the 270 since the bullets were "going too fast and zipping through."

The only reason I ever bought a 7mag to begin with is because I found one on sale at a store going out of business.

 

[Pdvdh]

I hate to even ask. But for the benefit of the OP and his son, is there any other caliber bullet that's jinxed like the .284 is?

And why isn't a .280 Remington or a .284 Winchester every bit the cartridge the .270 Winchester is? Is it that extra 0.007" of bullet diameter? That 0.007" is somehow bad, but add another 0.024 and now we've got a caliber bullet that walks on water? Too funny... Quick... Somebody notify John Burns that his selected caliber for elk, out WEST mind you, just don't have the mo-jo.

I have no objection to opinions. I don't object to the efforts of others to gain consensus and a following. I don't even object if others get strung out tighter than a banjo string when others fail to see things their way. This Forum and this Thread is written dialog of Poster's experiences and opinions. Nothing more. Every reader gets to choose what to think about these Posts and opinions. Liars and lying? How does that word even enter the Thread with respect to opinions. How does one lie when expressing experiences and opinions. I dunno...

If some of the comments posted here seem over the top, it would likely be a result of the proposal that .243, .257, .264, .277, and .308 and larger caliber bullets have the magic. But not the .284 caliber bullets. Accepting that argument requires that I conclude that the .284 caliber bullet manufacturers haven't figured out in over 45 years, how to construct a .284" diameter bullet that can kill large game animals as well as all the other aforementioned caliber bullets that they manufacture and sell. Has anybody that really believes this notified Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Swift, Speer, Barnes, and Paul from Wildcat Bullets, that it's impossible to manufacture a functional .284 bullet? I don't understand why Paul can't keep up with the demand for his 200 grain RBBT custom bullets. If those .284s don't kill well.

 

[Firecat]

Phorwath 1+ on your comments. I'm Afraid that John Nosers Write up for the 7mm Rem mag was in vane on page 332 of Nosler's 6th edition reloaders manual. I chuckle when one of the patriarchs write up on a caliber has in bold, "SO I MUST ADMIT MY FAVORITE RIFLES ARE CHAMBERED IN 7MM CALIBER." Guess he didn't get the memo.

 

[Scot E]

Scot,
This old world is just one big place now! The difference between the USA and NZ is just seconds on the web or 4 days via airmail! Everything you have we have as well.
As I said above, if a bullet doesn't perform, its due to it being chosen for the wrong application not anything to do with a few thousandths of an inch difference in diameter. Certainly the big 7mm's are capable of driving bullets very fast, but you'll have the same issues if you drive the comparable SD bullet of the same type that speed in the same case capacity family. A case in point would be the RUM family and the 7mm 162gn A-Max at say 3300fps verses the 30 cal 178gn A-Max at the same speed. These velocities are straight out of the Hornady manual and are for comparison only. You can drive the 162 way faster than this out of the 7mm RUM. Anyway, the point is you'll get similar terminal performance with both these examples, with a very slight edge going to the 30 cal due to the 16gns more bullet weight and 24 thou more diameter. Up close they'll both tend to over expand and may lack penetration depending on what bones are hit, but will perform well out past 300 yards or so. The 7mm does have a significant advantage in BC though, .625 G1 verses .495. This is where the 7mm's shine - BC verses velocity.
If at the other end of the bullet construction spectrum, you choose the Swift A-Frame in 7mm 175gn at 3000fps verses the 30 cal 200gn, both at about 3000fps, again out of the Swift manual, the expansion ratio would be similar for both if hitting the same size animal in the same place. The 30 cal will penetrate a little more due to the 25gn increase in bullet weight, but the 7mm again has the better BC, .493 verses .444. It also has the better SD. These bullets will both penetrate like hell on animals at close range and I have put them lengthways right through animals like the Gemsbok in Africa and the Red stag here in NZ.
The point of these examples is that it is the bullet construction that is the difference between the A-Max over expanding up close but working superbly at long range and the A-Frame penetrating right thru up close, not 24 thou of bullet diameter!
If you choose the same weight bullet of the same family in each caliber, you'll have an even more noticeable over expansion in the 30 cal due to the increased velocity you can drive it at due to the larger expansion ratio.
The 300 RUM pushing the 168gn A-Max at 3400fps plus will be a bigger bomb than the 7mm 162gn at 3300fps.
The 30 cal 180gn A-Frame at 3200fps out of the RUM won't penetrate anywhere near as far as the 7mm 175gn due to extra 200fps of velocity causing more expansion. The 7mm's .310 SD also aids penetration verses the 30 cal 180's .271 SD.
None of this is opinion, this is fact. You will find examples of hunters choosing the wrong projectile for the job in any caliber, and maybe in some of the above poster's experiences they happened to see more guys shooting 7mm's using the wrong bullets, or hitting in the wrong places. But that doesn't mean the 7mm is a worse killer than the 270 for example! That just simply ain't credible!
Greg

Thanks for the info. so what is your favorite bullet for say deer sized game, elk sized game, dangerous game, ie grizzly bears, and African game in the 7mm?

 

[Scot E]

I figgered ya may have been. No reason to be. This is just another parallel to arguing whether or not we should run synthetic lubricants in a rig for more miles, or stick with dino oil and change often. If the rig gets us from A to B, is there really a right answer? (ahem, uhh, yes, definitely synthetics).

LOL! HEEEERE WE GO!gun)

 

[Scot E]

I hate to even ask. But for the benefit of the OP and his son, is there any other caliber bullet that's jinxed like the .284 is?

And why isn't a .280 Remington or a .284 Winchester every bit the cartridge the .270 Winchester is? Is it that extra 0.007" of bullet diameter? That 0.007" is somehow bad, but add another 0.024 and now we've got a caliber bullet that walks on water? Too funny... Quick... Somebody notify John Burns that his selected caliber for elk, out WEST mind you, just don't have the mo-jo.

I have no objection to opinions. I don't object to the efforts of others to gain consensus and a following. I don't even object if others get strung out tighter than a banjo string when others fail to see things their way. This Forum and this Thread is written dialog of Poster's experiences and opinions. Nothing more. Every reader gets to choose what to think about these Posts and opinions. Liars and lying? How does that word even enter the Thread with respect to opinions. How does one lie when expressing experiences and opinions. I dunno...

If some of the comments posted here seem over the top, it would likely be a result of the proposal that .243, .257, .264, .277, and .308 and larger caliber bullets have the magic. But not the .284 caliber bullets. Accepting that argument requires that I conclude that the .284 caliber bullet manufacturers haven't figured out in over 45 years, how to construct a .284" diameter bullet that can kill large game animals as well as all the other aforementioned caliber bullets that they manufacture and sell. Has anybody that really believes this notified Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Swift, Speer, Barnes, and Paul from Wildcat Bullets, that it's impossible to manufacture a functional .284 bullet? I don't understand why Paul can't keep up with the demand for his 200 grain RBBT custom bullets. If those .284s don't kill well.

I like your points here and understand what you are saying. I do think one point, or opinion as it may be, needs to be made here that likely makes a difference in this debate. I belong to this site because I believe it to be the top tier info site for shooters, reloaders, and hunters. I highly doubt there are very many "let's go shoot a box of ammo and then go kill some critters" type guys here. For the most part we are passionate about this sport and the time we spend researching, experimenting, and practicing verifies this truth.

So in reality the good guys here, on both sides of this debate, are going to be the least likely to have a problem, if in the unlikely event there actually is one ,because of the experience and time they put forth perfecting their craft as it were. The average joe hunter though who shoot big bore Betsy with the newest, greatest bullet with no idea on how said combo should be used could have a lot more issues. A possibility at least.

And just to be clear again, the gent I talked to that told me that he hated the 7mm didn't have issues due to bullet diameter per say, which keeps being brought up here, but specifically bullets blowing up with near zero penetration and bullets blowing through animals with zero expansion. These were the 2 issues specifically. I will say in my very limited experience with friends 7mm's I have seen these issues with the 7mm round and never with a .30 which is what I use. And yes, I know my limited experience doesn't make it fact and I understand many of you haven't seen this.

Again guys, thanks for your opinions and info. I really have enjoyed this brisk debate!

 

[Derek M.]

And just to be clear again, the gent I talked to that told me that he hated the 7mm didn't have issues due to bullet diameter per say, which keeps being brought up here, but specifically bullets blowing up with near zero penetration and bullets blowing through animals with zero expansion. These were the 2 issues specifically.

Well that changes everything.

You can get that kind of bullet reaction with a lot of different bullets regardless of caliber.

Specifically, the SST and btip in the 140 class on an elk may just blow up for sure, as well as an Amax, especially if it is close range, and from a magnum, even though it doesn't have to be. The Barnes bullets have a reputation of penciling through in some situations when the hole closes instead of expanding. SMKs can pencil right through as well, and I imagine a Berger could too.

I guess a question I have is how did he determine "zero expansion?" Did he see this on a dead animal that was recovered but called it bullet failure?

Maybe he remembers many incidents with 7mm bullets because they are used more often? Is he referring specifically to any particular 7mm caliber?

 

[Derek M.]

Here's a nice example of a horrible 7mm mag shot:

YouTube - Navajo Reservation Deer Hunt 2008

 

[Scot E]

Well that changes everything.

You can get that kind of bullet reaction with a lot of different bullets regardless of caliber.

Specifically, the SST and btip in the 140 class on an elk may just blow up for sure, as well as an Amax, especially if it is close range, and from a magnum, even though it doesn't have to be. The Barnes bullets have a reputation of penciling through in some situations when the hole closes instead of expanding. SMKs can pencil right through as well, and I imagine a Berger could too.

I guess a question I have is how did he determine "zero expansion?" Did he see this on a dead animal that was recovered but called it bullet failure?

Maybe he remembers many incidents with 7mm bullets because they are used more often? Is he referring specifically to any particular 7mm caliber?

I clarified his specific reasons earlier on in this thread. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. He did also say he hated that caliber all together so he is an all around hater I guess!

magnum guns, which i assumed was likely the 7mmRM and similar. He mentioned lots of long tracking jobs eventually finding the animals and seeing no expansion and lots of lost animals as well, which does bring into question many other things that could have gone wrong. He also mentioned having to shoot an animal a couple times, sometimes with the same gun other times with a different caliber, and finding that the first shot just exploded with little to no penetration.

 

[Derek M.]

I missed your clarification, sorry.

Nonetheless, still an interesting observation by the person you are speaking of. I can assure you, he'd never witness anything like that if we hunted together and I toted one of my 7mags. He'd see 2 hits, the bullet hitting the shoulder, and the animal hitting the dirt. Well, maybe 3 hits, because there'd be a high five or a fist bump too.

 

[trebark]

Another great caliber to be considered would be the 260 Remington.

+1 for a first rifle.

 

[roninflag]

So what would you call proper bullets for the 7mm? AB, Berger, Interbond, Ballistic Tip, SST, Partition? I would think all these should perform well even in a lower powered 7mm

the barnes and accubonds will pass all the way through( caliber does not matter). the corelockt, interbond and other similar bullets may or may not pass through. if you can shoot partitions they have violent expansion( front half) with penitration( back half) best of both .