7mm Berger 180 Hybrids

Yet another example from Barbour Creek. This is 140 elite hunter out of creedmoor at 700 yards. Another excellent video! 7" before detonation. The yaw effect may not show up in the simulated long range testing by reducing velocity and shooting close range since all bullets yaw a good bit at start.

I dont think it is limited to a certain set of bergers as mentioned however most videos are 6.5 and 7 mm video. Maybe other cals do not show same but I doubt it. If the tip was collapsing without the help of yaw it would do it right away not penetrate a ways then collapse nor would it start expansion at different depths at different distance. Drag decreases with decelleration as bullet penetrates but increases with increase of surface area in contact due to yaw which more than offsets it. Hitting bone helps a bunch too

Lou
 

Attachments

  • FE81EC81-E0B5-429C-B174-C32C276E0C73.png
    FE81EC81-E0B5-429C-B174-C32C276E0C73.png
    696.8 KB · Views: 52
Yet another example from Barbour Creek. This is 140 elite hunter out of creedmoor at 700 yards. Another excellent video! 7" before detonation. The yaw effect may not show up in the simulated long range testing by reducing velocity and shooting close range since all bullets yaw a good bit at start.

I dont think it is limited to a certain set of bergers as mentioned however most videos are 6.5 and 7 mm video. Maybe other cals do not show same but I doubt it. If the tip was collapsing without the help of yaw it would do it right away not penetrate a ways then collapse nor would it start expansion at different depths at different distance. Drag decreases with decelleration as bullet penetrates but increases with increase of surface area in contact due to yaw which more than offsets it. Hitting bone helps a bunch too

Lou
There will typically be a delay, and if you look closely at those cross-sections I posted, you can see right at the tips there's essentially a straight channel before opening to the cavity.

It's my theory that this allows the bullets to penetrate a bit as the tip begins to buckle into the cavity. Since the bullet impacts at such a high velocity, it's going to cover come distance before the hydraulic force really begins. Unless you're using a version without sufficient starting mass, it impacts at a very high impact velocity, and/or experiences a ton of resistance upon impact (dense muscle and/or bone), you'll see a good balance of penetration and expansion. When those things are against you, you may indeed see more of an instant expansion and more shallow penetration.

Larger calibers will obviously have more surface area than smaller calibers even before beginning to deform, and their cavities are overall larger as well. So it's common for the smaller calibers to penetrate a bit more before you see that permanent cavity/wounding.

It will definitely help you to know things like the cavity size of the particular Berger you're using, and then things like it's mass, what your impact velocity will like be, or the anticipated range, and the amount of impact resistance the bullet will encounter based on the game size and anatomy you're hunting. Adjusting your shot placement helps too to reduce or increase impact resistance as needed.

I'm just adding to the discussion. I'm not trying to argue or say you're wrong, just to clarify.
 
I believe that we can all safely agree that bullet failures can and do occur regardless of bullet type, but in the OP's specific situation here, the question we must ask is could this failure have been avoided by simply unclogging the tip? Does anyone have any controlled test results showing expansion of clogged vs. unclogged tips?

Regardless of how a specific bullet is marketed - as a target or hunting bullet - what we call hunting failures are going to occur due to the infinite numbers of scenarios, environmental conditions, etc., that the bullet encounters when impacting the specific point of the game animal it strikes.

I had a situation this year where I encountered a bull elk at 75 yards. I was kneeling down peering through a small hole on a very steep spine in the timber. The bull was staring me down. I sat motionless hoping that he would move to an area that offered a better shot angle and opening. After watching the bull for several minutes, I made the choice to shoot the bull right on the shoulder. He was quartering too slightly, and my thoughts were that I wanted to anchor him on the spot to ensure that he didn't run down the steep slopes on both sides of the spine. I had plenty of time to think about the shot and how to proceed.

I was running 208 ELD-M's with my 300 win mag. Yes, I know that these are "target bullets"... Per my ballistics program, the bullet speed at impact was at about 2850 FPS and it was carrying about 3700+ ft-lbs of energy. I hit him right on the point of the shoulder - in the thick part of the humerus where it connects to the scapula.

Just as I anticipated, the bull dropped in his tracks. Looking up through the steep-timbered slope, I could see all 4 of his hooves kicking in the air. The bull was basically flat on his back. This lasted for about 5-10 seconds and the kicking stopped. It was very cold so I grabbed my gloves and put them on and started reaching for my pack that sat beside me. After putting my gloves on, I glanced up again, and noticed antlers moving from where he fell. The bull gathered himself and walked to my right across the slope into an opening. I could see him standing there in the wide open. He was still quartering too me which wasn't ideal. I was dumbfounded as to why he got up and was questioning whether is was even the same elk. I looked through my scope and noticed a small trickle of blood coming down his shoulder confirming that it was the same elk that I had shot. This time I had to act quick as I knew he was wounded. Since he was still quartering to me, I chose a spot between the shoulder and neck, hoping to sneak it into his vital area. The bullet hit its mark just to the neck-side of the scapula and right of my original shot. This caused considerable damage to the lungs and the main portion of the jacket and some of the core ended up resting against the hide on the opposite side. After wobbling for just a few seconds, the bull fell over dead within a couple of feet from where he was standing.

When I deboned the elk, I discovered that the first bullet essentially bounced off the thick end of the humerus. I found absolutely no fractures in the bone. There wasn't even a nick in the bone and there was very little tissue damage. I discovered about 1/3 to 1/2 of the bullet. It penetrated about 2" and was sitting near the humerus in some muscle tissue. A core section of copper and lead about 3/4" in length was still intact, probably weighing about 40% of its original weight. The rest of the bullet was nowhere to be found. I assume that a few factors such as shot angle, high velocity, my questionable choice to try and break the shoulder, and bullet choice, etc., all contributed to the failure.

I am not trying to derail this thread or start another conversation about how one should or shouldn't use ELD'M's or Bergers for hunting, but rather just sharing my story of how I experienced a complete failure and near-perfect performance on the same elk over the course of just a minute of time. Strange things can happen.
 

Attachments

  • thumbnail_IMG_7206.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7206.jpg
    284 KB · Views: 66
  • thumbnail_IMG_7207.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7207.jpg
    247.3 KB · Views: 58
  • thumbnail_IMG_7209.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7209.jpg
    167.5 KB · Views: 67
  • thumbnail_IMG_7210.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7210.jpg
    195.1 KB · Views: 63
I believe that we can all safely agree that bullet failures can and do occur regardless of bullet type, but in the OP's specific situation here, the question we must ask is could this failure have been avoided by simply unclogging the tip? Does anyone have any controlled test results showing expansion of clogged vs. unclogged tips?

Regardless of how a specific bullet is marketed - as a target or hunting bullet - what we call hunting failures are going to occur due to the infinite numbers of scenarios, environmental conditions, etc., that the bullet encounters when impacting the specific point of the game animal it strikes.

I had a situation this year where I encountered a bull elk at 75 yards. I was kneeling down peering through a small hole on a very steep spine in the timber. The bull was staring me down. I sat motionless hoping that he would move to an area that offered a better shot angle and opening. After watching the bull for several minutes, I made the choice to shoot the bull right on the shoulder. He was quartering too slightly, and my thoughts were that I wanted to anchor him on the spot to ensure that he didn't run down the steep slopes on both sides of the spine. I had plenty of time to think about the shot and how to proceed.

I was running 208 ELD-M's with my 300 win mag. Yes, I know that these are "target bullets"... Per my ballistics program, the bullet speed at impact was at about 2850 FPS and it was carrying about 3700+ ft-lbs of energy. I hit him right on the point of the shoulder - in the thick part of the humerus where it connects to the scapula.

Just as I anticipated, the bull dropped in his tracks. Looking up through the steep-timbered slope, I could see all 4 of his hooves kicking in the air. The bull was basically flat on his back. This lasted for about 5-10 seconds and the kicking stopped. It was very cold so I grabbed my gloves and put them on and started reaching for my pack that sat beside me. After putting my gloves on, I glanced up again, and noticed antlers moving from where he fell. The bull gathered himself and walked to my right across the slope into an opening. I could see him standing there in the wide open. He was still quartering too me which wasn't ideal. I was dumbfounded as to why he got up and was questioning whether is was even the same elk. I looked through my scope and noticed a small trickle of blood coming down his shoulder confirming that it was the same elk that I had shot. This time I had to act quick as I knew he was wounded. Since he was still quartering to me, I chose a spot between the shoulder and neck, hoping to sneak it into his vital area. The bullet hit its mark just to the neck-side of the scapula and right of my original shot. This caused considerable damage to the lungs and the main portion of the jacket and some of the core ended up resting against the hide on the opposite side. After wobbling for just a few seconds, the bull fell over dead within a couple of feet from where he was standing.

When I deboned the elk, I discovered that the first bullet essentially bounced off the thick end of the humerus. I found absolutely no fractures in the bone. There wasn't even a nick in the bone and there was very little tissue damage. I discovered about 1/3 to 1/2 of the bullet. It penetrated about 2" and was sitting near the humerus in some muscle tissue. A core section of copper and lead about 3/4" in length was still intact, probably weighing about 40% of its original weight. The rest of the bullet was nowhere to be found. I assume that a few factors such as shot angle, high velocity, my questionable choice to try and break the shoulder, and bullet choice, etc., all contributed to the failure.

I am not trying to derail this thread or start another conversation about how one should or shouldn't use ELD'M's or Bergers for hunting, but rather just sharing my story of how I experienced a complete failure and near-perfect performance on the same elk over the course of just a minute of time. Strange things can happen.
Yep, every bullet will inevitably have a poor result tied to it.

Your story is a good example of how shot placement and impact velocity can make a big difference on the outcome.

I actually LOVE the 208gr ELDM in a 300wm and think it's an amazing combo. That said, it's a thin jacketed bullet and has a large cavity with a polymer tip inserted into it. I try to preach to people that bullets like this work best when you adjust shot placement to areas like just behind the shoulder when impact velocity will be above 2600fps, and above 2400fps for versions with under .280 sectional density (used to determine mass proportional to caliber size).

Your results would have been so much better if it didn't happen to hit that humerus bone. That was rotten luck.

You did, however, have a great example of a temporary coma- where the animal dropped due to a massive shock to the central nervous system. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough blood loss, or enough oxygen deprivation for it to expire before it recovered enough to get back up.

I'm glad the story has a happy ending and you managed to put it down and get it home.

There's definitely good things to take away from the story, so thanks for sharing.
 
@RH300UM @Petey308 We had similar experiences with several elk and deer - only with the 300 grain elite hunters. Short or long range did not matter - after the season we just decided to run different cartridges. Sure was a head scratcher! I chalked it up to not enough mass for the bullet to reliably open up (we are NOT shoulder shooters - i'm sure results would be different.)

With that being said you would think a lapua Ai would produce devastating wounding at 2900 FPS launch - but that was not the case with this particular cartridge/bullet combo.

6.5 156's & 140's & 7mm 180 VLD's on the other hand have worked phenomenally for us!

725 yards
468167e3-4831-4f84-8a4a-bc5fd794d6fe-jpeg.223589

1462c687-efe0-41cf-a819-4632470687de-jpeg.223588


a43fb0b6-05ae-473c-ae27-35e8afcc7257-jpeg.223587


cb88e070-cf62-4126-a4e6-b0886a85e66b-jpeg.223585

40c74ded-f7e2-4c89-8dcb-454281504c8b-jpeg.223586


400 yards

ef31a6a7-c8d3-44a1-8b65-7aab87890b35-jpeg.223582

29f8185a-a9ea-42e6-9c9c-01a4aa014533-jpeg.223583

3f464272-797a-43b3-8666-655cdcfb23ba-jpeg.223584
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the response. I'll work on shot placement next go around.
I was standing/shooting without a rest and breathing hard trying to cut off 3 bulls as they worked through the trees. The first shot entrance hole shown which ended up in the left shoulder "tumbled" and 2nd shot exit showing. It was a difficult tracking
Those are hard decsion to be make quickly. The first bull I shot was running away from me. It was almost a butt shot. I was able to place round just off his butt left side. It ended up in the front on the left side. Down he went. There been lots of time I couldn't get a shot off at an elk in the forests. Just had to let it go.
 
Good questions
I should have posted that originally

Shot was 635 yards
7saum
180 hybrid @ 3000fps
3 shots in a 3 inch placement behind the shoulder
All 3 shots had no perceived effect.
Watching through a spotting scope it wouldn't even flinch. I could watch the bullet swirl in and hit its mark. Each shot was 10-15 seconds each after the first one.
Shot and see the results.
All 3 never fazed him. Just stood there. Finally 4 shot was placed in the neck shoulder area and it dropped
While field dressing the bull I saw that all 3 boiler room shots had penciled through both lungs and exited with a wound approximately like the entrance
Thank you for describing the wounds. In a hunting bullet the wound it causes is the bottom line. Besides learning something of bullet construction and performance, know that your first 3 shots were very likely fatal ones, but not rapidly. The fact that the animal just stood there with three bullets having perforated the lungs prevented him from dying quickly. If he had run, he likely would have died within 200 yds from bilateral tension pneumothoraxes. To get an animal to drop, one thing has to happen, and that is the nervous system has to be severely compromised very rapidly. With an expanding bullet going into or close to the heart and pulmonary arteries they are injured severely enough to either stop beating or more likely to be torn and leak out blood catastrophically, causing an immediate and profound drop in blood pressure which leads to lack of brain perfusion and lights out. Your fourth "kill" shot apparently did not hit the brain, expanded, creating a temporary wound cavity which severely bruised the high thoracic and lower spinal cord causing an instant quadriplegia, inability to breathe and brain anoxia causing eventual death, much like what causes people to die with hanging. I find it useful to understand the physiology behind rapid incapacitation and death for hunting purposes because that is what we all are trying to achieve with the bullets we shoot.
 
I don't think the op or myself are complaining. Just showing there are failures sooner or later with all. I found that in my case the one bullet failed to operate as designed and that shot placement was not the issue? I don't sweat it much since I carry two cartridges and a knife if all else fails. Have a great day.
Yep! Murphy does NOT discriminate.
 
Well I dont shoot a 7 mm yet but here is a little info on a 300 gr berger .
338 Edge
300 gr Otm @ 2850 ft.per.sec
3027 yards on steel target
946.5 fps at 3027 yards
596.7 ft.pds. of energy
5027 inch drop @ 3027 yards
Two bullets found 6" to the righ of target
The pieces found directly under target @3027 yards .
So yes the expand under 1800 ft.per.sec on steel .
I know this dont pertain to the 7mm 180 bergers but is sure is some great Knowledge! Ha ha

Now you guys have me thinking about trying the 180 gr berger in my 7Rum at said distance to compare! Hmmm

Rum Man

20200410_114618.jpg

20210411_105321.jpg

20210113_084600.jpg
 
Well I dont shoot a 7 mm yet but here is a little info on a 300 gr berger .
338 Edge
300 gr Otm @ 2850 ft.per.sec
3027 yards on steel target
946.5 fps at 3027 yards
596.7 ft.pds. of energy
5027 inch drop @ 3027 yards
Two bullets found 6" to the righ of target
The pieces found directly under target @3027 yards .
So yes the expand under 1800 ft.per.sec on steel .
I know this dont pertain to the 7mm 180 bergers but is sure is some great Knowledge! Ha ha

Now you guys have me thinking about trying the 180 gr berger in my 7Rum at said distance to compare! Hmmm

Rum Man

View attachment 444993
View attachment 444994
View attachment 444995
Brother, I do not think you are shooting that bad boy far enough. 🤣
 
@RH300UM @Petey308 We had similar experiences with several elk and deer - only with the 300 grain elite hunters. Short or long range did not matter - after the season we just decided to run different cartridges. Sure was a head scratcher! I chalked it up to not enough mass for the bullet to reliably open up (we are NOT shoulder shooters - i'm sure results would be different.)

With that being said you would think a lapua Ai would produce devastating wounding at 2900 FPS launch - but that was not the case with this particular cartridge/bullet combo.

6.5 156's & 140's & 7mm 180 VLD's on the other hand have worked phenomenally for us!

725 yards
468167e3-4831-4f84-8a4a-bc5fd794d6fe-jpeg.223589

1462c687-efe0-41cf-a819-4632470687de-jpeg.223588


a43fb0b6-05ae-473c-ae27-35e8afcc7257-jpeg.223587


cb88e070-cf62-4126-a4e6-b0886a85e66b-jpeg.223585

40c74ded-f7e2-4c89-8dcb-454281504c8b-jpeg.223586


400 yards

ef31a6a7-c8d3-44a1-8b65-7aab87890b35-jpeg.223582

29f8185a-a9ea-42e6-9c9c-01a4aa014533-jpeg.223583

3f464272-797a-43b3-8666-655cdcfb23ba-jpeg.223584
I've seen a lot of .338 and larger caliber bullets punch right through like you're describing. Unfortunately, none of your pictures loaded for me, so I'm not sure if I'm missing any vital info from them.

I will say that the reason I think this happens is actually too much mass in the bullet. A 300gr .338" bullet has a sectional density of .375 and to give you a perspective, a 250gr .308" bullet is about the same, and you'd have to go up to a 185gr 6.5mm bullet to get similar mass.

All that mass in that projectile is going to need a lot of opposing force in order for it to expand quickly and produce hydraulic force into the animal and inflict sufficient wounding for a quick and clean kill. That means a lot of resistance upon impact. So shoulder shots would be ideal, and you might have seen better results if you did fire into the shoulder. Shoulder shots also devastate the CNS and typically allow the animal to drop and bleed out or succumb to asphyxiation before it can recover.

I have seen these bullets expand better at longer distances (when impact velocity actually lowers) and I believe that's due to the delay in expansion overall, and impacting at a higher velocity causes them to exit before they expanding enough to produce hydraulic force, whereas if you slow that down they can expand before exiting. More resistance would help as well. Ultimately, it boils down to too much momentum at high impact velocities for that particular bullet and not enough opposing forces to combat they properly.

You could also step down to a 250gr or lighter bullet of similar construction and see better results too due to the decrease in mass, which decreases momentum, etc.

I personally have found using 30cals with heavy for caliber bullets (208gr-245gr) of softer construction balance out very well regarding penetration vs expansion, and work extremely well both close and far. I've gotten away from using larger calibers because the results just tend to not be worth messing with it. Of course the same principle work with smaller calibers as well, but there are other factors and considerations that need to be taken into account going that route too.

Your examples that you say have worked well are actually good examples of bullet size and construction that do indeed balance well.
 
I've seen a lot of .338 and larger caliber bullets punch right through like you're describing. Unfortunately, none of your pictures loaded for me, so I'm not sure if I'm missing any vital info from them.

I will say that the reason I think this happens is actually too much mass in the bullet. A 300gr .338" bullet has a sectional density of .375 and to give you a perspective, a 250gr .308" bullet is about the same, and you'd have to go up to a 185gr 6.5mm bullet to get similar mass.

All that mass in that projectile is going to need a lot of opposing force in order for it to expand quickly and produce hydraulic force into the animal and inflict sufficient wounding for a quick and clean kill. That means a lot of resistance upon impact. So shoulder shots would be ideal, and you might have seen better results if you did fire into the shoulder. Shoulder shots also devastate the CNS and typically allow the animal to drop and bleed out or succumb to asphyxiation before it can recover.

I have seen these bullets expand better at longer distances (when impact velocity actually lowers) and I believe that's due to the delay in expansion overall, and impacting at a higher velocity causes them to exit before they expanding enough to produce hydraulic force, whereas if you slow that down they can expand before exiting. More resistance would help as well. Ultimately, it boils down to too much momentum at high impact velocities for that particular bullet and not enough opposing forces to combat they properly.

You could also step down to a 250gr or lighter bullet of similar construction and see better results too due to the decrease in mass, which decreases momentum, etc.

I personally have found using 30cals with heavy for caliber bullets (208gr-245gr) of softer construction balance out very well regarding penetration vs expansion, and work extremely well both close and far. I've gotten away from using larger calibers because the results just tend to not be worth messing with it. Of course the same principle work with smaller calibers as well, but there are other factors and considerations that need to be taken into account going that route too.

Your examples that you say have worked well are actually good examples of bullet size and construction that do indeed balance well.
I will be testing the 250 gr berger in a 338 Rum and the 245 gr berger in a 300 Rum this year . Excited to see the results on Critters !

I'm not trying to derail this 7mm thread!

Rum Man
 
Top