goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Would it be possible to hit a target with a 308 improved at 3000 yards shooting a 220 grain MK bullet? Just curious if anyone thinks it is feasible. I'm not trying it or anything.
308 A.I. at almost 2 miles?
- Thread starter goodgrouper
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I am assuming you have seen the articles page at: http://slrharbor.com/
These articles have got me to thinking about a few things, the biggest being what types of bullets, or rather, what makes a type of bullet pass through the transonic zone into subsonic without loosing stability. I'm sure the answer is somewhere in Robert McCoy's work, but I think reading through it might give me a brain hemorrhage!
I've been toying with the idea of working up some reduced loads with the heavy SMKs that would go subsonic at 200-300 yds so I can do some testing for accuracy through the sonic boundary at 400yds. Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but I think this would be the biggest barrier (pun intended). How about it guys any thoughts?
These articles have got me to thinking about a few things, the biggest being what types of bullets, or rather, what makes a type of bullet pass through the transonic zone into subsonic without loosing stability. I'm sure the answer is somewhere in Robert McCoy's work, but I think reading through it might give me a brain hemorrhage!
I've been toying with the idea of working up some reduced loads with the heavy SMKs that would go subsonic at 200-300 yds so I can do some testing for accuracy through the sonic boundary at 400yds. Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but I think this would be the biggest barrier (pun intended). How about it guys any thoughts?
G
Guest
Guest
I don't think that you could push a 220gr MK out of a 308 (Improved or not at any barrel length) fast enough to keep it from destabilizing to the point of zero accuracy at 3000yds. I'd have to see it to believe it , hell 3000yds is a big step for a 50BMG let alone any 30cal.
Unless your shooting at aircraft carriers with it I woulden't see much point in even trying it. With a 50 sure a big 33 wildcat maybe but a 30 I seriously doubt it.
I've seen guys that regulary shoot at praire dogs at 1k with a 300Ackley and 210gr BergerVLD's launched at 3200fps try to hit 55gal drums at 2000yds and maybe hit it one out of fifteen shots , and thats a bullet with as high if not higher BC than the MatchKing going a hell of alot faster than a 308 could push it.
Unless your shooting at aircraft carriers with it I woulden't see much point in even trying it. With a 50 sure a big 33 wildcat maybe but a 30 I seriously doubt it.
I've seen guys that regulary shoot at praire dogs at 1k with a 300Ackley and 210gr BergerVLD's launched at 3200fps try to hit 55gal drums at 2000yds and maybe hit it one out of fifteen shots , and thats a bullet with as high if not higher BC than the MatchKing going a hell of alot faster than a 308 could push it.
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
Precision Shooting ran an article that was reprinted in the book "Precision Shooting At 1000 Yards", authored by Steve Hugle. In that article they shot a 16" gong and a prarie dog at 3120 yards with a 308 AI and 220 gr SMK's. It is interesting reading.
rost495
Well-Known Member
If I'm not mistaken, the shots like at Adobe Walls, were way subsonic. And if I understand it correctly, the problem lies where the bullet is between super and sub sonic. After its subsonic its stable again mostly till it falls.
I recall that LR article in PS. Seems like they had stupidly silly looking tapered scope mounts. But it was required for the distance they were plinking at.
I don't think that 308 AI or even Win is the ideal cartridge to attempt a super long shot. But that doesn't mean its not feasible.
Last input is that in smallbore shooting there is a large difference in matches at 50 yards and at 50 meters. Subsonic being a big factor. And that influences folks to use different ammo as required so that their bullets were not in the transition zone at the target face. Hence the offering of different speed target ammo in 22lr match ammo. Of course I was not a great 3 position shooter and most of my error was in my wobble, not the possible wobble of my projectiles. At least until I could get prone....
Jeff
I recall that LR article in PS. Seems like they had stupidly silly looking tapered scope mounts. But it was required for the distance they were plinking at.
I don't think that 308 AI or even Win is the ideal cartridge to attempt a super long shot. But that doesn't mean its not feasible.
Last input is that in smallbore shooting there is a large difference in matches at 50 yards and at 50 meters. Subsonic being a big factor. And that influences folks to use different ammo as required so that their bullets were not in the transition zone at the target face. Hence the offering of different speed target ammo in 22lr match ammo. Of course I was not a great 3 position shooter and most of my error was in my wobble, not the possible wobble of my projectiles. At least until I could get prone....
Jeff
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
I'm with J. Jones. Maybe I would have to eat crow, but it just sounds like too big of a stretch for such a diminutive case capacity. I would like to see it done. Why don't those guys ever compete at 1000 yard matches? Or better yet, put out a video with no stops so we know there's no Hollywood to the claim.
jb1000br
Official LRH Sponsor
I believe Bruce Artus from Pueblo was the feller that made that shot. Maybe...just maybe...the 220SMK survives the sonic transition--im sure it does better than the 168SMK!!
Kregg Slack shoots with Bruce and posts on benchrest.com forums as himself--shoot him an email or PM thru BR.com if in doubt, or call him at the number found here--> www.parrysgunsmithing.com
JB /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Kregg Slack shoots with Bruce and posts on benchrest.com forums as himself--shoot him an email or PM thru BR.com if in doubt, or call him at the number found here--> www.parrysgunsmithing.com
JB /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Ernie
SPONSOR
Slack does compete @ 1k. And Steve Hugel (sscoyote-username) did write the article and is my hunting buddy. It may sound impossible, but that doesn't mean it is. I would encourage you to read the articles.
rost495
Well-Known Member
FWIW I've had some super long pokes at coyotes with my M1A and 180 Sierras. Now its tough to shoot around 1400 yards or so but my cousin has plowed open fields. Let me just say I've shot a bunch and killed nothing and have no paper proof. But once you had elevation, it would hold that well enough, about 2 times as tall as a coyote. Now as to the wind factors.... well that was really tough. Closest I've ever been was right between the legs once.
I suspect that most folks assume that once the bullet goes subsonic its toast. Though I have no testing I feel that there is a zone of distance, like from X to Y yards that its bad, and after that it will be fine again.
Phooey on those that have to have proof on everything thats ever been done. Do it how you want to. Shawn thats not directly at you but I'm sick of folks proclaiming that because they have not done it or can't do it to prove it to them. Too many doubting thomas's around.
I've made some shots in front of some hunters from FL that I suspect they are called liars each time they tell it. But I did it and don't care what others think.
Thank you for allowing my occasional soapbox time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Jeff
I suspect that most folks assume that once the bullet goes subsonic its toast. Though I have no testing I feel that there is a zone of distance, like from X to Y yards that its bad, and after that it will be fine again.
Phooey on those that have to have proof on everything thats ever been done. Do it how you want to. Shawn thats not directly at you but I'm sick of folks proclaiming that because they have not done it or can't do it to prove it to them. Too many doubting thomas's around.
I've made some shots in front of some hunters from FL that I suspect they are called liars each time they tell it. But I did it and don't care what others think.
Thank you for allowing my occasional soapbox time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Jeff
G
Guest
Guest
The 3125yd shot that Kregg Slack made was with a 338Lapua , he has pis posted on his web page and that gong is a lot bigger than 16"
How fast would a 220gr Match King be going at 3000yds anyway? supposing that it was launched at maybe 2500 fps?
How fast would a 220gr Match King be going at 3000yds anyway? supposing that it was launched at maybe 2500 fps?
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Rost 495,
I believe Mr. Slack would have a chance with his .264 mag, but you said yourself that it is hard to connect at 1400 yard with your 308. Now double your range and and a few more yards and that is how far he is shooting? If that bullet is getting there, it is traveling at about 660 fps says my Infinity program. Thats almost half the velocity of a 22 lr!
Maybe there is something to that turbulent zone you talked about, but that would be hard to swallow also. I would think that once a bullet induces yaw to itself during the transonic/subsonic period, that it would veer of course far enough to never re-gain any accuracy. I know that my 22-250 Improved fast twist is wonderfully accurate at 1200 yards, but after that it goes into transonic state and actually induces so much yaw that it heats up from air friction and disintegrates before it gets to 1400 yards! So it's turbulent zone makes it terribly inaccurate! Anything out there farther than 1400 yards can live without fear of getting shot by that gun!
Just a side note, my gunsmith used to live in Woodland Park, Colorado. This is not too far from where those two fellows live. Supposedly they have an open invitation to come witness their shooting. Well, my gunsmith called and called and called to set up a time to shoot with them and they never returned his calls. He even went to their shop to find them and was told they were gone. They had no reason to run from him, he was going there with an un-biased view. He just wanted to see it and they acted like they didn't want to show him. Just kinda weird. Like I said, I might have to eat crow, but there is just something fishy going on here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And yeah, I might be skeptical, but it keeps me from being gullible! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I believe Mr. Slack would have a chance with his .264 mag, but you said yourself that it is hard to connect at 1400 yard with your 308. Now double your range and and a few more yards and that is how far he is shooting? If that bullet is getting there, it is traveling at about 660 fps says my Infinity program. Thats almost half the velocity of a 22 lr!
Maybe there is something to that turbulent zone you talked about, but that would be hard to swallow also. I would think that once a bullet induces yaw to itself during the transonic/subsonic period, that it would veer of course far enough to never re-gain any accuracy. I know that my 22-250 Improved fast twist is wonderfully accurate at 1200 yards, but after that it goes into transonic state and actually induces so much yaw that it heats up from air friction and disintegrates before it gets to 1400 yards! So it's turbulent zone makes it terribly inaccurate! Anything out there farther than 1400 yards can live without fear of getting shot by that gun!
Just a side note, my gunsmith used to live in Woodland Park, Colorado. This is not too far from where those two fellows live. Supposedly they have an open invitation to come witness their shooting. Well, my gunsmith called and called and called to set up a time to shoot with them and they never returned his calls. He even went to their shop to find them and was told they were gone. They had no reason to run from him, he was going there with an un-biased view. He just wanted to see it and they acted like they didn't want to show him. Just kinda weird. Like I said, I might have to eat crow, but there is just something fishy going on here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And yeah, I might be skeptical, but it keeps me from being gullible! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
JBM
Well-Known Member
I keep seeing articles about these very, very long shots. As much as I'd like to be able to believe, it seems to me that most of them use quite a bit of ammunition to hit the target.
In the article "Trials and Tribulations of Making the Long Shot" (at http://slrharbor.com/), there is this little tidbit:
[ QUOTE ]
It took five trips to Montana, 1,000 rounds of ammo, and Ken's excellent spotting and coaching before I finally got the job done, shooting a dog at 2,110 yards.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I read that right, he shot over 1000 times before he hit the target at greater than 2000 yards. I may be labeled as a heretic for saying this, but I don't think that's accuracy -- it's perseverance.
Just for the fun of it, I simulated a group of 28 feet and 1000 rounds. [I had to simulate it, I've never shot this far. And for you math types, it is normally distributed with sigma of 8. I'm using a normal distribution as an example. I don't know how much of an approximation this is.] This comes out to an accuracy of 16 MOA [somebody check my math to make sure]. Sure enough there is a shot close to the center. You can see the group here:
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/temp/shots.pdf
We see some nice groups posted here, but I've not seen one at 2000 yards yet -- any takers?
Brad
In the article "Trials and Tribulations of Making the Long Shot" (at http://slrharbor.com/), there is this little tidbit:
[ QUOTE ]
It took five trips to Montana, 1,000 rounds of ammo, and Ken's excellent spotting and coaching before I finally got the job done, shooting a dog at 2,110 yards.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I read that right, he shot over 1000 times before he hit the target at greater than 2000 yards. I may be labeled as a heretic for saying this, but I don't think that's accuracy -- it's perseverance.
Just for the fun of it, I simulated a group of 28 feet and 1000 rounds. [I had to simulate it, I've never shot this far. And for you math types, it is normally distributed with sigma of 8. I'm using a normal distribution as an example. I don't know how much of an approximation this is.] This comes out to an accuracy of 16 MOA [somebody check my math to make sure]. Sure enough there is a shot close to the center. You can see the group here:
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/temp/shots.pdf
We see some nice groups posted here, but I've not seen one at 2000 yards yet -- any takers?
Brad
rost495
Well-Known Member
Goodgrouper: Anything is possible at all. You might eat crow, I might, you never know. Hell its better than starving of ignorance right?
Heres another thought. I should add that often times I"m neither pro or con on subjects but like to interject how it could be done. Whether it can or not is often yet to be proven. A fence sitter with some input if you will.
Anyway there is a sport called mini palma. Folks use 22 LR at 100,150,200 yards. And they shoot some fairly small groups and decent scores. It really makes you work to dope the wind at 200 for a 22lr bullet. It well represents the difficulties encountered in real 1000 yard wind matches.
Now I dont' have access to calculate remaining speed, but bet the 22 bullet is also at 600 fps or less. They are not aerodynamic for sure. And they often start between 1000 and 1100 fps only.
I should add that I was mentioning my iron sight M1A. Definitely not a super tack driver and iron sights against game are much tougher than against a visible paper target. So even though it was tough for me, things would have been significantly easier (closer??) with a scoped 308 bolt gun off a bipod or backpack. Not saying that would have made the shot for sure though.
I'm interested in why your bullet would go so crazy as to blow up at past 1400 yards. The only ones I"ve seen go puff are up at the muzzle. Though I have read of ones disentegrating at between 900 and 1000 as they go subsonic. Just can't recall the reasoning. Took lots of sheets on the ground and testing to confirm.
Food for thought.
Jeff
Heres another thought. I should add that often times I"m neither pro or con on subjects but like to interject how it could be done. Whether it can or not is often yet to be proven. A fence sitter with some input if you will.
Anyway there is a sport called mini palma. Folks use 22 LR at 100,150,200 yards. And they shoot some fairly small groups and decent scores. It really makes you work to dope the wind at 200 for a 22lr bullet. It well represents the difficulties encountered in real 1000 yard wind matches.
Now I dont' have access to calculate remaining speed, but bet the 22 bullet is also at 600 fps or less. They are not aerodynamic for sure. And they often start between 1000 and 1100 fps only.
I should add that I was mentioning my iron sight M1A. Definitely not a super tack driver and iron sights against game are much tougher than against a visible paper target. So even though it was tough for me, things would have been significantly easier (closer??) with a scoped 308 bolt gun off a bipod or backpack. Not saying that would have made the shot for sure though.
I'm interested in why your bullet would go so crazy as to blow up at past 1400 yards. The only ones I"ve seen go puff are up at the muzzle. Though I have read of ones disentegrating at between 900 and 1000 as they go subsonic. Just can't recall the reasoning. Took lots of sheets on the ground and testing to confirm.
Food for thought.
Jeff
Centre Punch
Well-Known Member
Goodgrouper,
I'm with Shawn C on this, buy the book "Precision Shooting at 1000 yards", apart from the mentioned article(to which a whole chapter is devoted) its a fantastic read. I was a non-believer at first but i'm converted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I'm with Shawn C on this, buy the book "Precision Shooting at 1000 yards", apart from the mentioned article(to which a whole chapter is devoted) its a fantastic read. I was a non-believer at first but i'm converted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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