Kirby did you and Richard try to use any moly or other lubricant on the 100 grn wildcats when you where testing your allen mag, there is that new lube that Tubbs is using on his new 117 grn 6mm bullet, just a thought. I am shooting the 80 grn wildcats in a 22-243 8 twist bartlien barrel 5r at 3500 with no problems, .25 moa at 300 yards.
224 allen mag
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Fiftydriver
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I tried some moly coated 107 gr ULD RBBTs and it only offered around 50 fps more velocity potential before accuracy dropped off.
I believe this has more to do with the 3 groove rifling design then anything. A 5R, 5C or thin 6 groove would certainly help the situation but with the current thin jacketed bullets I am pretty sure they would still fail before we reached top velocity potential which is right around 3500 fps with this bullet weight.
Hopefully we can get some heavy jacketed bullets to try but until then testing has been put on hold for the original 224 AM design.
Kirby Allen(50)
I believe this has more to do with the 3 groove rifling design then anything. A 5R, 5C or thin 6 groove would certainly help the situation but with the current thin jacketed bullets I am pretty sure they would still fail before we reached top velocity potential which is right around 3500 fps with this bullet weight.
Hopefully we can get some heavy jacketed bullets to try but until then testing has been put on hold for the original 224 AM design.
Kirby Allen(50)
brianwinzor
Well-Known Member
Kirby, Can you recall what velocity the Wildcat 107 grain ULD achieved before it came apart in your .224 AM.
Last weekend I tried the 100 grain WC in my 224 Clark (Krieger 26 inch 6.5 twist) again, and worked up from 47.0 to 55.0 grains of H870 which appeared to be maximum. However, my CED chronograph did not work again for the second time in succession, so I do not have any velocities to report.
A keyhole appeared on the target at 50 grains, and beyond that only bullet fragments reached the target, which was a repeat of the previous test.
I estimate that the 50.0 grains/H870 load was producing about 2800 fps, but hopefully I can get my chronograph to work next time around to verify this.
I have also been trying some bullets made by a local bullet maker in Oz. The 105 grain HPBT (1.305 inches, 10 ogive Sierra MK profile) was built on the J4 jacket and somewhat predictably suffered a similar fate to the 100 grain WC. The 105 Little even came apart when I was fireforming cases.(39.0 grains IMR 7828)
After the original failure of the 105 HPBT, Gary Little subsequently made up a 105 and 110 grain FBHP (6 ogive) using 277 cal jackets drawn down progressively to .224. I worked up from 49 to 52.0 grains of H870, and these bullets held together at each loading.
He also made up a 104 grain FBHP built using a .257 cal jacket (6 ogive), which again held together at the only load fired. (52.0/H870)
Gary also made up a 85 grain FBHP and 85 grain HPBT,(10 ogive using a 257 cal jacket) where the lead core was melted in the jacket. (very time consuming)
I worked up from 55 to 57 grains H870 with both 85 grain bullets, and have had no failures on both test days, and accuracy appeared to be good with several sub 0.5 moa groups. Hopefully on the next outing I can get that chrono to work and get some data.
Gary rang today to tell me that he is sending me some 100 grain HPBT's (10 ogive) that were made using a .257 cal jacket, and using the same bonding process as used in the 85 grain bullets.
Last weekend, out of curiosity I also tested the Sierra 80 grain MK, and worked up from 55.0 to 59.0 grains H870. The 58.0 grain load produced a massive black comet tail on the target, but surprisingly all the other loads produced round holes on the target.
The other positive to come out of last weekends testing was with my 257W. (Krieger 7 twist). After the previous success with the 156 grain WC and the failure of the 142 grain WC ULD, I tested the 125 grain Wildcat ULD, and the Nosler 100 and 115 grain BT's.
I worked up from 72.0 to 76.0 grains AR 2218 (H50BMG in US) with the 125 WC. Excellent accuracy (.265 & .335 moa) was achieved with the 73.0 and 74 grain loads, and maximum pressure appeared to be reached with the 75.0 grain load. I subsequently decided to fire the 76.0 grain load and the 3rd shot keyholed into the target. (maybe caused by barrel fouling, as 18th shot after cleaning)
I worked up from 75.0 to 79.0 grains AR 2218 with the Nosler 115 BT and had no failures, with 2 groups producing sub 0.5 accuracy. The 78.0 grain load may be the maximum, as the 79.0 grain load produced slightly stiffer extraction.
I worked up from 76.0 to 81.0 grains H870 in the Nosler 100 BT and again had no failures, which surprised me as at an estimated 3,600+ fps, this bullet is producing 370,000 rpm in my 7 twist barrel. The real positive from this, is that the flexibility of the rifle has increased substantially, with a bullet range of 100 - 156 grains.
Hope I haven't bored you and that the above is of some interest. Brian.
Last weekend I tried the 100 grain WC in my 224 Clark (Krieger 26 inch 6.5 twist) again, and worked up from 47.0 to 55.0 grains of H870 which appeared to be maximum. However, my CED chronograph did not work again for the second time in succession, so I do not have any velocities to report.
A keyhole appeared on the target at 50 grains, and beyond that only bullet fragments reached the target, which was a repeat of the previous test.
I estimate that the 50.0 grains/H870 load was producing about 2800 fps, but hopefully I can get my chronograph to work next time around to verify this.
I have also been trying some bullets made by a local bullet maker in Oz. The 105 grain HPBT (1.305 inches, 10 ogive Sierra MK profile) was built on the J4 jacket and somewhat predictably suffered a similar fate to the 100 grain WC. The 105 Little even came apart when I was fireforming cases.(39.0 grains IMR 7828)
After the original failure of the 105 HPBT, Gary Little subsequently made up a 105 and 110 grain FBHP (6 ogive) using 277 cal jackets drawn down progressively to .224. I worked up from 49 to 52.0 grains of H870, and these bullets held together at each loading.
He also made up a 104 grain FBHP built using a .257 cal jacket (6 ogive), which again held together at the only load fired. (52.0/H870)
Gary also made up a 85 grain FBHP and 85 grain HPBT,(10 ogive using a 257 cal jacket) where the lead core was melted in the jacket. (very time consuming)
I worked up from 55 to 57 grains H870 with both 85 grain bullets, and have had no failures on both test days, and accuracy appeared to be good with several sub 0.5 moa groups. Hopefully on the next outing I can get that chrono to work and get some data.
Gary rang today to tell me that he is sending me some 100 grain HPBT's (10 ogive) that were made using a .257 cal jacket, and using the same bonding process as used in the 85 grain bullets.
Last weekend, out of curiosity I also tested the Sierra 80 grain MK, and worked up from 55.0 to 59.0 grains H870. The 58.0 grain load produced a massive black comet tail on the target, but surprisingly all the other loads produced round holes on the target.
The other positive to come out of last weekends testing was with my 257W. (Krieger 7 twist). After the previous success with the 156 grain WC and the failure of the 142 grain WC ULD, I tested the 125 grain Wildcat ULD, and the Nosler 100 and 115 grain BT's.
I worked up from 72.0 to 76.0 grains AR 2218 (H50BMG in US) with the 125 WC. Excellent accuracy (.265 & .335 moa) was achieved with the 73.0 and 74 grain loads, and maximum pressure appeared to be reached with the 75.0 grain load. I subsequently decided to fire the 76.0 grain load and the 3rd shot keyholed into the target. (maybe caused by barrel fouling, as 18th shot after cleaning)
I worked up from 75.0 to 79.0 grains AR 2218 with the Nosler 115 BT and had no failures, with 2 groups producing sub 0.5 accuracy. The 78.0 grain load may be the maximum, as the 79.0 grain load produced slightly stiffer extraction.
I worked up from 76.0 to 81.0 grains H870 in the Nosler 100 BT and again had no failures, which surprised me as at an estimated 3,600+ fps, this bullet is producing 370,000 rpm in my 7 twist barrel. The real positive from this, is that the flexibility of the rifle has increased substantially, with a bullet range of 100 - 156 grains.
Hope I haven't bored you and that the above is of some interest. Brian.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Brian,
Always interested to read your test results, good stuff. In my 1-7 Lilja 3 groove I can load both the 100 and 107 gr ULD RBBT to right at 3100 fps with fine accuracy. At 100 yards I was getting one hole groups consistantly at this level. Only bad thing is that in this case capacity, pressure is so low that bore fouling is misserable as you can imagine with the powders needed.
This 3100 fps is the ragged edge for these bullets as even a boost to 3125 fps tears them apart.
I tested these bullets in a 1-8 3 groove as well thinking maybe I was over spinning them and causing the problems. This test was out of a 22-6mm AI chambering. This twist rate did not stabilize these bullets at any load level.
Interestingly enough, I pulled my original 224 AM test barrel, cut the chamber off and rechambered it to 22-250 AI. Using Ramshot Magnum powder I can load it up to its upper velocity range(3100 fps) in the 24" barrel with good working pressure and amaxing accuracy. I was getting around 1/5 moa groups at 500 yards with this rifle and its based on a Ruger M77 Varminter if you can believe it. Untrued and all.
Used it to take this nice Fallow this spring at 310 yards
Bullet performance was not much as the meplates were closed almost to pin points in the attempt to get the highest BC possible and also because there were designed to be used on coyotes to limit pent damage, not for big game use. But it expanded enough to get the job done very cleanly.
Persoanlly, I would very much like a heavy jacketed 110 gr ULD Flat Base bullet for my 224 AM. With a meplate opened slightly for medium game hunting performance. I think it would be a heck of a bullet and in the 224 AM in 26" barrels I think it would be able to reach 3400 fps pretty easily and still have a BC well above anything else offered by commerical bullet makers.
Your 257 issues sound very familiar to mine dealing with my 257 Allen Xpress and 257 Allen Magnum wildcats. The 156 gr ULD RBBT has a pretty heavy jacket on it and handles the 1-7 twists pretty well as long as the barrels are not overly hot or long in the tooth.
The 142 gr ULD RBBT is based on the much thinner J-4 and really needs a 1-8 or even 1-9 6 groove for best results.
The Nosler bullets have an extremely heavy jacket by comparision and a very heavy solid base as well so they will handle pretty much anything you throw at them.
Now if Nosler would make a 100 gr 22 cal accubond, I would be happy as could be with my 224 Allen Magnum. THink that will happen any time soon????
Good reports, thanks for the data. Let us know what velocity you are getting when you get your chrono back up and running.
Kirby Allen(50)
Always interested to read your test results, good stuff. In my 1-7 Lilja 3 groove I can load both the 100 and 107 gr ULD RBBT to right at 3100 fps with fine accuracy. At 100 yards I was getting one hole groups consistantly at this level. Only bad thing is that in this case capacity, pressure is so low that bore fouling is misserable as you can imagine with the powders needed.
This 3100 fps is the ragged edge for these bullets as even a boost to 3125 fps tears them apart.
I tested these bullets in a 1-8 3 groove as well thinking maybe I was over spinning them and causing the problems. This test was out of a 22-6mm AI chambering. This twist rate did not stabilize these bullets at any load level.
Interestingly enough, I pulled my original 224 AM test barrel, cut the chamber off and rechambered it to 22-250 AI. Using Ramshot Magnum powder I can load it up to its upper velocity range(3100 fps) in the 24" barrel with good working pressure and amaxing accuracy. I was getting around 1/5 moa groups at 500 yards with this rifle and its based on a Ruger M77 Varminter if you can believe it. Untrued and all.
Used it to take this nice Fallow this spring at 310 yards
Bullet performance was not much as the meplates were closed almost to pin points in the attempt to get the highest BC possible and also because there were designed to be used on coyotes to limit pent damage, not for big game use. But it expanded enough to get the job done very cleanly.
Persoanlly, I would very much like a heavy jacketed 110 gr ULD Flat Base bullet for my 224 AM. With a meplate opened slightly for medium game hunting performance. I think it would be a heck of a bullet and in the 224 AM in 26" barrels I think it would be able to reach 3400 fps pretty easily and still have a BC well above anything else offered by commerical bullet makers.
Your 257 issues sound very familiar to mine dealing with my 257 Allen Xpress and 257 Allen Magnum wildcats. The 156 gr ULD RBBT has a pretty heavy jacket on it and handles the 1-7 twists pretty well as long as the barrels are not overly hot or long in the tooth.
The 142 gr ULD RBBT is based on the much thinner J-4 and really needs a 1-8 or even 1-9 6 groove for best results.
The Nosler bullets have an extremely heavy jacket by comparision and a very heavy solid base as well so they will handle pretty much anything you throw at them.
Now if Nosler would make a 100 gr 22 cal accubond, I would be happy as could be with my 224 Allen Magnum. THink that will happen any time soon????
Good reports, thanks for the data. Let us know what velocity you are getting when you get your chrono back up and running.
Kirby Allen(50)
brianwinzor
Well-Known Member
Kirby, Thanks for the information I requested.
If the 107 grain Wildcat could only be driven to 3,100 fps (318,000 rpm) in a 7 twist barrel, and if driven to similar rpm's in my 6.5 twist barrel then I am only looking at 2,850 fps in my .224 Clark.
This is about 300 fps below what I believe that weight would reach in my .224 Clark, and loading down to that velocity with H870 and AR2218 is almost certain to cause a powder fouling problem.
I obtained 2950 fps with the 100 grain Wildcat in my 22/250 AI (28 deg) using 42.0 grains of Win WMR, and could have gone 0.5 - 1.0 grain higher, so it is easy to believe that you reached 3,100 fps with this bullet in your 22/250AI.
Now that I have about 500 100 grain and 105 grain bullets that are virtually unusable in my .224 Clark, I am seriously looking at using them up by installing a 7 twist barrel in my 22/250AI when the existing 10 twist barrel expires.
I agree that a 110 grain FB ULD should be great for medium game in your 224AM, and a similar philosophy was behind my decision to build the .224 Clark around the 100 grain bullets.
I reasoned that the 25/06 with the 100 grain bullet is good on medium game here in Oz. Therefore the 224 Clark which has a similar case capacity, should also work well this bullet weight on medium game, with the added bonus of a higher BC.
I have to confess that I did not expect the 100 & 115 grain Nosler BT's to withstand the rpms generated by 257W with 7 twist barrel, so I was very surprised when the did.
Oh to dream, and I wonder how many barrels will I burn out before Nosler release a 100 grain Accubond? Hopefully it won't be that long before I get my Chrono to record velocities again. Brian.
If the 107 grain Wildcat could only be driven to 3,100 fps (318,000 rpm) in a 7 twist barrel, and if driven to similar rpm's in my 6.5 twist barrel then I am only looking at 2,850 fps in my .224 Clark.
This is about 300 fps below what I believe that weight would reach in my .224 Clark, and loading down to that velocity with H870 and AR2218 is almost certain to cause a powder fouling problem.
I obtained 2950 fps with the 100 grain Wildcat in my 22/250 AI (28 deg) using 42.0 grains of Win WMR, and could have gone 0.5 - 1.0 grain higher, so it is easy to believe that you reached 3,100 fps with this bullet in your 22/250AI.
Now that I have about 500 100 grain and 105 grain bullets that are virtually unusable in my .224 Clark, I am seriously looking at using them up by installing a 7 twist barrel in my 22/250AI when the existing 10 twist barrel expires.
I agree that a 110 grain FB ULD should be great for medium game in your 224AM, and a similar philosophy was behind my decision to build the .224 Clark around the 100 grain bullets.
I reasoned that the 25/06 with the 100 grain bullet is good on medium game here in Oz. Therefore the 224 Clark which has a similar case capacity, should also work well this bullet weight on medium game, with the added bonus of a higher BC.
I have to confess that I did not expect the 100 & 115 grain Nosler BT's to withstand the rpms generated by 257W with 7 twist barrel, so I was very surprised when the did.
Oh to dream, and I wonder how many barrels will I burn out before Nosler release a 100 grain Accubond? Hopefully it won't be that long before I get my Chrono to record velocities again. Brian.
FilippoMo
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