224 Allen Magnum testing finished............

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Fiftydriver, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    To all interested.

    I have been playing with my 224 AM over the last several months and finally finished up testing with the round and I am sad to say the performance I wanted was just not attainable.

    I have never been one to hide my "failures" as I feel they help as much as hurt and can possibly save others alot of time and money down the road.

    I got my throat opened up so that I would not have to turn my case necks which really helped speed up the testing proceedures.

    Several powders were tested including AA8700, US869 and WC872.

    Because the case capacity of the 224 AM is so large(based on the 270 WSM) I used only two bullets, the 100 and 107 gr ULD RBBT from Wildcat Bullets.

    I had tested these bullets in a 1-8 twist 22-6mm AI and could not get them to stabilize in this twist. Because of this I ordered in a Lilja 1-7 twist for my personal 224 Allen Mag test rifle.

    The last several tests have been the real definition of the round itself. I found with both bullets that accuracy was EXTREMELY good but only at velocities under 3100 fps. In fact at 3000 fps and below they were almost hard to believe playing with the 1/4 moa range with all groups.

    At 3100 fps almost to the fps, things were letting loose. I did however continue velocity testing up until the bolt lift just began to get sticky which was right at around 3350 fps so i figured a very comfortable top end velocity potential from this round was 3300 fps in a 26" barrel. That was with the 107 gr ULD RBBT.

    The problem here is that we need a 1-7 twist barrel to spin these VERY long 22 cal bullets. But with this fast twist barrel, at least with a 3 groove barrel which I am using, we are limited to 3100 fps max in velocity.

    A 5 or 6 groove barrel may well offer more performance but at this point I am not willing to spend the money on tooling or another custom barrel to find out, right now anyway.

    These bullets take the 22 cal rounds to a totally different performance level. In a chambering such as a 22-250 or its AI version, the 100 and 107 gr ULD RBBT in a 1-7 twist barrel would be extremely impressive and amazingly accurate. A +.600 BC bullet at +3000 fps is still a serious long range thumper and recoil would be non existant.

    Also, rounds such as the 22 BRs and Dashers could also use these bullets for extended reach and get a major boost in ballistic performance.

    The problem is not with the bullets, its with me being overly aggressive in case capacity. Just to much for what is needed. So at this time the 224 AM project is stailmated. I have been thinking about doing the same thing but on a 223 WSSM case which would be right in there with the velocity range we would want with these bullets, It would reach 3100 fps pretty easily I believe but would be much more efficent then the WSM based design.

    At times bigger is not always better, the 224 AM is one of those cases but it was a fun experiment and we learned alot anyway so it was more then worth the expense.

    If you want a mild manored, long range thumper, a fast twist barrel chambered for something from the BR to the 22-250 AI would be very impressive with either of these bullets.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  2. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Well, Hmmmmmm......

    Nothing ventured nothing gained.

    I still have a REM 722 that surely must need a new barrel by now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    We'll wait and see what you come up with instead of the 224..

    However, my vote for priorities would be to bring the 338 AM in under 16#s dressed. Dressed is Louisana for "w/every thing on it." (Confirm w/JDJones /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

    I guess that priority comes right after "production". I can here lerch &amp; BJ chompin' at the bit from way up here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    OOPS, Forgot my question: With top loads of the powders listed, was there any air space in the case after the bullet was seated?

    The question isn't related to anything other than my little side project that I'm about to rekindle. I think that local fella finally has that RUM barrel that I got from you, months and months ago, screwed on.
     

  3. malcarjeb

    malcarjeb Well-Known Member

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    Fiftydriver,

    I have a .223wssm with a 1-8 twist and it shoots the 70g. TSX at 3600fps from a 26" tube. I have also shot the 90g. SMK's and I think at 3300(but not sure)If it helps I could load some of the 90's up and let you know for sure. My barrel is a 6 groove hart barrel. It is pretty accurate with just about every powder I have tried. Just have not had time to key in on one load yet. By the way, I am the one who has been talking to you about the 257,6.5,and 270A /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  4. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    50, was this with the front ignition or did you revert to conventional rear priming?
     
  5. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Dave,

    I was wondering the same thing, but didn't ask the question straight out..... Which was the reason for my question after the OOPS...

    Was wondering if there were any room for the flash tube. I'm assembling components to upgrade my FI experiments. One fella was nice enough to loan an RSI pressure trace outfit. I already have the computer and chrono. And a second chrono provided by another LRH fella.

    I had ordered a 224AM, wanted to be the first, but got queezie and switch'd to a 270AM.

    I have had a 24" 338 Win barrel removed and a 26" RUM barrel fitted especially for FI testing. The Win just wasn't enough of a cartridge to FI to make a major difference. Plus I was loading to way to high of pressures. (the RSI will really help here) The RUM will be better. I plan on testing w/225/250/275gr bullets. The cartridge is a bit puny for the 300gr bullets, I think.

    I have pics of the 224AM cartridge on my wall, Its a sweet lookin' cartridge /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
     
  6. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to here your .224 allen mag didn't work out. I too have found that in fast twist barrels that bullets can only take so much. To bad for us guess will have to live with it until they start making more bonded bullets. I had problems at first finding the right powder and load for my 22 dasher 6.5 twist and 100 rbbt. At first I tried ramshot magnum with 2865 fps. After about 100 rounds I got a carbon problem and accuracy was not there day in and day out. I have since switched to ramshot hunter 35.0 grains and am getting a honest 2990 fps at 7 feet from the muzzle. It is shooting great already killed a few hogs out to 650. I am trying to save it for the ohio 1000 yard benchrest match, if I can make one this year. I wouldn't be scared to try the 22 dasher, 22-243 ackley, 223 wssm in your 7 twist lilja they are all up to the task. Thanks for posting you info I was hoping it would work out. If it makes you feel any better many guys have thrown fits over 22-284 and bullets coming apart. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  7. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    BJ is chompin, I am headbutting the wall I am so excited to see this big mother!!!

    I hate to see the death of the 224 AM but I got a strange idea that this wont be the last killer 22cal to come out of APS, I will be eagerly anticipating what this crazy nut from up north comes up with.

    Steve
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Roy,

    With WC872 top loads were in the 98% load density range, US869 and AA8700 were around 95% with my lots of powder.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Lovetohunt,

    I am sure the 6 groove goes along way to getting better performance with these bullets. It may also help with the 100 gr pills as well as would a 5R or 5C barrel.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Dave,

    I tested with both, very similiar results in this short fat case design. I will say the front ignition required about 3 grains more powder to match velocity. Velocity spreads were tighter with the front ignition but only at top end pressures.

    Accuracy at low end was about the same with both, very good.

    I suspect the forward ignition will offer more advantage in the larger rounds. I am going to play with it in my 338 AM here when I get a chance....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Lerch,

    No its not dead, just in the rethinking stage currently. Seeing the groups those 100 and 107 gr pills make when they are in their comfortable RPM range is hard to forget about.

    There will be something built for these bullet, just a matter of what it turns out to be???

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  12. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    R.M.,

    I agree, they do shoot well once you get them where they like to be, I think I just got a bit creedy is all with the case capacity I was using.

    Richard is working on the bonded ULD RBBT in larger calibers. If he gets it figured out it may help us here as well, we will have to see.

    Richard was talking about a bullet designed for big game hunting with a FB, bonded core and 6 ogive. Not as sexy as the ULD RBBT but I think he said he may be able to push 110 gr in weight. Would still have a hell of a BC for a 22 cal bullet. Will learn more this weekend, my wife and I are heading up to stay with Richard for a few days over the long holiday weekend. Should be fun. I expect to spend many $$ as a result of out talks about bullets and wildcats this weekend!!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  13. Jon A

    Jon A Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Richard is working on the bonded ULD RBBT in larger calibers. If he gets it figured out it may help us here as well, we will have to see

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Oh yes, and they're going to make my 300 sing! The day is finally near.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
     
  14. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Kirby, Disappointing to hear the outcome of the testing of the 100 &amp; 107 ULD's in your 224AM, as I am about to send my 6.5 twist Krieger (4 groove) to my gunsmith to get attached to a Rem 700 LA, and be chambered for the .224 Clark.

    I just calculated that the "ceiling" of about 3,000 fps with the 7 twist barrel equates to about 308,000 rpm. This doesn't augur well for my hopes of about 3250 fps with the 100 grain bullet in the Clark, as it will be producing 354,000 rpm in the Krieger 6.5 twist.

    In your testing with the 224 AM, as the accuracy deteriorated as you progressed from 3,100 to 3,350 fps, with both the 100 and 107 grain bullets, were the bullets holding together, or were some or all not reaching the target?

    I have some of Richard's original batch of 100 grain ULD's which were made using the J4 jacket. Another tester here in Oz, found that with this bullet in his 7 twist 22/6mm AI, the accuracy at 3,100 was good, but 3 of the 13 shots fired did not reach the 300 yard target.

    Richard told me several months ago that he was using a thicker 6mm jacket for the 107 grain bullet, but had to overcome jacket problems before he would send them to me. I assume that he had solved this problem with the 107's you were using, yet they still did not perform as hoped at the higher velocities despite the thicker jacket.

    Prior to ordering the Krieger 4 groove barrel, I rang their technician, and he was confident that this would work well, and that the extra expense ($75) of a 6 groove was unnecessary. I hope that decision doesn't come back to bite me.

    It just occured to me that the 142 grain 25 cal ULD I will be using in a several weeks time in a 257 Weatherby with 7 twist Krieger should be reaching 3,200 fps and 329,000 rpm. Do you believe there is any reason for concern about this J4 jacketed bullet holding together? I do have some 156 ULD's for back up.

    I deeply appreciate the way you share your testing information on a variety of cases, and I certainly have learnt from your experiences. Regards, Brian.