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<blockquote data-quote="fitzm2" data-source="post: 1496523" data-attributes="member: 19013"><p>Sorry guys...can I just say I have trouble with computers too. This post went out without being complete. So will try again.</p><p></p><p>Before I attempt another explanation, let me throw out 2 disclaimers. #1. I am not a teacher and therefore do not have the giftings of bringing to light the mysteries of shooting. #2. I am endowed with very limited communication skills. With these 2 disclaimers I will cinch up my belt and attempt another round of explanations.</p><p></p><p>From what Songdogger told us, he shot out to 500 yards to verify point of aim versus point of impact. That being said, it is not his shooting ability off of lead sleds, bipods, etc. You won't miss a 24" target at 450 yards when you have already been practicing shooting at 500 yards.</p><p></p><p>The observed problem is that Songdogger shot 8 times and all of them were high. The only thing in the thread that I did not see was what his aiming point was in relation to where the bullets were impacting.</p><p></p><p>In the old days, rangefinders ranged a target and returned your data in a line of sight format. From this reading, it was entered into a ballistic program along with the incline ange to arrive at a shooting solution.</p><p></p><p>With Songdoggers ballistic program already in use through his binoculars, his shooting solution already compensated for the incline angle, wind, barometric pressure and all the other things that go into a solution for a first round hit.</p><p></p><p>With fear and trepidation, let me enter into a realm that is difficult to understand and more difficult to explain. For you mathmaticians out there, please bear with me. If I were to draw a triangle on a piece of paper and at the top of the apex I drew a horizontal line that was parallel with the base of the triangle and then measured the vertical distance between the 2 horizontal lines with a piece of string it is going to be shorter than the slope of the triangle. If I were looking through ballistically corrected binoculars, the shooting solution of 450 yards is shorter than the actual distance to the target. This is important only from the stand point that the bullet is actually traveling further than the 450 yards shown in the shooting solution, but it also means that the environment has a longer affect on the bullet than what one might expect.</p><p></p><p>On flat ground, a head wind generally means that the wind is traveling parallel with the ground. In the case of shooting down hill, we are not dealing with a headwind in the sense that it is moving in a horizontal position. In this particular scenario, the wind is traveling upslope generating a lifting affect.</p><p></p><p>Because of the unique form of a bullet, when it is fired from a rifle, the projectile travels in a parabolic curve. Ugh...this is difficult. Songdoggers rifle is shot from 13" above ground level with the full force of 10 mph wind on the underside of the bullet, generating an unknown lift as the bullet travels to the target downhill. This was proven by missing 7 of the eight shots that were too high to impact a 24" target. I suspect that the shot that actually connected with the target was shot with the crosshairs of the scope below the belly line of the animal trying to compensate for the lifting force of the wind on the bullet while in flight.</p><p></p><p>So, how do you factor in a wind force that is lifting your bullet upwards as it speeds to the target? I don't have any ballistic program that will give me a solution. So I have devised a method, although it is not anywhere perfect, to try to compensate for the uplift on a bullet that is shot downhill with an unknown uplifting force.</p><p></p><p>This seems to work, but the logic is full of holes. My ballistic program is designed to compensate for horizontal drifting because of wind. Because of the bullet trajectory while traveling down hill I have settled on using a full value wind deflection and deduct that from my shooting solution in MOA increments. In the case of Songdoggers experience, his ballistic program indicates 6.2 MOA for 450 yards. He is dialed in at 4 MOA and is still shooting high. According to my imperfect solution, I would take the 6.25 MOA given by the program, deduct a full value wind of 10 mph, subtract that from the 6.25 MOA. A 10 MPH wind with full wind value would be about 2.75 MOA. 6.25 MOA minus 2.75 wind deflection = 3.5 shooting MOA. How close am I? I don't really know, but Songdogger is over shooting the target at 4 MOA. I promise, I can hit a 24" target somewhere using this method. It has proven itself for over 50 years. Will the bullet impact where my point of aim is? You would be surprised at how close it is given all the variables. Whew!!! I hope this helps. If you have questions you can get ahold of me at 509-396-8480.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="fitzm2, post: 1496523, member: 19013"] Sorry guys...can I just say I have trouble with computers too. This post went out without being complete. So will try again. Before I attempt another explanation, let me throw out 2 disclaimers. #1. I am not a teacher and therefore do not have the giftings of bringing to light the mysteries of shooting. #2. I am endowed with very limited communication skills. With these 2 disclaimers I will cinch up my belt and attempt another round of explanations. From what Songdogger told us, he shot out to 500 yards to verify point of aim versus point of impact. That being said, it is not his shooting ability off of lead sleds, bipods, etc. You won't miss a 24" target at 450 yards when you have already been practicing shooting at 500 yards. The observed problem is that Songdogger shot 8 times and all of them were high. The only thing in the thread that I did not see was what his aiming point was in relation to where the bullets were impacting. In the old days, rangefinders ranged a target and returned your data in a line of sight format. From this reading, it was entered into a ballistic program along with the incline ange to arrive at a shooting solution. With Songdoggers ballistic program already in use through his binoculars, his shooting solution already compensated for the incline angle, wind, barometric pressure and all the other things that go into a solution for a first round hit. With fear and trepidation, let me enter into a realm that is difficult to understand and more difficult to explain. For you mathmaticians out there, please bear with me. If I were to draw a triangle on a piece of paper and at the top of the apex I drew a horizontal line that was parallel with the base of the triangle and then measured the vertical distance between the 2 horizontal lines with a piece of string it is going to be shorter than the slope of the triangle. If I were looking through ballistically corrected binoculars, the shooting solution of 450 yards is shorter than the actual distance to the target. This is important only from the stand point that the bullet is actually traveling further than the 450 yards shown in the shooting solution, but it also means that the environment has a longer affect on the bullet than what one might expect. On flat ground, a head wind generally means that the wind is traveling parallel with the ground. In the case of shooting down hill, we are not dealing with a headwind in the sense that it is moving in a horizontal position. In this particular scenario, the wind is traveling upslope generating a lifting affect. Because of the unique form of a bullet, when it is fired from a rifle, the projectile travels in a parabolic curve. Ugh...this is difficult. Songdoggers rifle is shot from 13" above ground level with the full force of 10 mph wind on the underside of the bullet, generating an unknown lift as the bullet travels to the target downhill. This was proven by missing 7 of the eight shots that were too high to impact a 24" target. I suspect that the shot that actually connected with the target was shot with the crosshairs of the scope below the belly line of the animal trying to compensate for the lifting force of the wind on the bullet while in flight. So, how do you factor in a wind force that is lifting your bullet upwards as it speeds to the target? I don't have any ballistic program that will give me a solution. So I have devised a method, although it is not anywhere perfect, to try to compensate for the uplift on a bullet that is shot downhill with an unknown uplifting force. This seems to work, but the logic is full of holes. My ballistic program is designed to compensate for horizontal drifting because of wind. Because of the bullet trajectory while traveling down hill I have settled on using a full value wind deflection and deduct that from my shooting solution in MOA increments. In the case of Songdoggers experience, his ballistic program indicates 6.2 MOA for 450 yards. He is dialed in at 4 MOA and is still shooting high. According to my imperfect solution, I would take the 6.25 MOA given by the program, deduct a full value wind of 10 mph, subtract that from the 6.25 MOA. A 10 MPH wind with full wind value would be about 2.75 MOA. 6.25 MOA minus 2.75 wind deflection = 3.5 shooting MOA. How close am I? I don’t really know, but Songdogger is over shooting the target at 4 MOA. I promise, I can hit a 24” target somewhere using this method. It has proven itself for over 50 years. Will the bullet impact where my point of aim is? You would be surprised at how close it is given all the variables. Whew!!! I hope this helps. If you have questions you can get ahold of me at 509-396-8480. [/QUOTE]
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