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Long Range Hunting & Shooting
What caliber 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag
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<blockquote data-quote="NZ Longranger" data-source="post: 501807" data-attributes="member: 14"><p>Man, these caliber debates! They just seem to be the topic that gets people really heated up!</p><p> I'm sitting here on a wet day working on the next issue and these emails keep popping up from LRH.com telling me there's new posts on this thread, and I can't help but get distracted and have to go and have a look at them!<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p> </p><p> LTLR, you have made some pretty definitive statements claiming the 6.5 and 30 amongst others are far better than the 7mm's at long range for big game. Others have come back and said that there's not that much difference between them and you're over stating the case. You base your argument on the 300WM over the 7mm RM on the 30 cal 177 GS and the 180 CE bullets, over the 7mm 170 CE. You state the BC of the 177 GS as .638, but if you look at their website its only that at 3300 fps, and drops to .589, and yet you're starting them even slower at 3200 fps. Therefore your average BC isn't going to be anywhere near .638, presuming that's an accurate BC from GS in the first place. Now I do believe Dan's average BC's on his CE's, and he rates his 180gn 30 cal at .600, and his 170gn 7mm at .620 average. Use realistic MV numbers for the 7mmRM and 300WM for these two and run the ballistics and you'll come up with sod all of a difference. The 30 cal has 24 thousands of an inch in diameter and 10 grains of bullet weight on its side, but I don't think you can claim that makes one way better than the other – that's just not credible!</p><p> As to the 6.5 example, you have the 130gn Scirocco at a BC of .571 which you've said previously makes the 264WM far better than the 7mmRM, and say there are no premium high BC bullets available for the 7mm. Firstly the BC of the 6.5 Scirocco doesn't come out that high for me, and I have yet to find one of our fast 6.5's that will shoot them accurately. We have had more success getting the 150gn 7mm to shoot any day than the 6.5mm, but maybe we've just been unlucky? CE make 130, 160 and 170 grains in 7mm, with a higher BC's than the 130gn Scirocco yet they don't seem to rate a mention this time unlike in the 30 cal example? The CE bullets and the tangental ogives like the Nosler AB's and Barnes TTSX's are far easier to get to shoot in most rifles than the likes of the Sciroccos in our experience, and in all these the 7mm's have better BC's than the 6.5's</p><p> You state poor bullet performance (mainly over expansion) is what's letting the 7mmRM down at 1000 yards plus, but I'm afraid I would have to disagree. In my experience of shooting many big game animals at long range, beyond 1000 yards its poor placement that lets you down, and secondly under expansion from too hard of a bullet. I have yet to see the bullet of choice in 7mm, something like a 180 Berger or 175 SMK, over expand at 1000 yards plus even on the shoulder bone of a big Red stag which is similar in size to an Elk. As for flattening on a rib bone at this range – that I just struggle to believe. </p><p></p><p>At closer ranges it's a different story – bullet performance becomes more important, and there the 7mm will beat the 6.5 for the same reasons you say the 30 cal beats the 7mm. But at the ranges talked about here, 1000 yards plus (1200 was the original question) where I believe bullet placement is more important, the higher BC verses velocity potential puts the 7mm's right up there if not slightly ahead of the 30 and 6.5's. This is due to the better chance of hitting where you want to, as Bryan Litz says. Personally I don't believe either the 7mmRM or 300WM should be used on Red stag/Elk sized game at 1200 yards – that is where the 338's come into their own. We limit these smaller calibers to 800 yards or thereabouts on the big stuff.</p><p> You have now explained the problem with hunters getting unrealistic expectations from watching the TV shows and running out and trying to shoot beyond their calibers capabilities, which I fully understand is very frustrating and damaging to our sport. But the real culprit here isn't the caliber, it's the fact they are shooting beyond their capabilities due to the TV show hype and this would happen no matter the caliber. These sort of "new to the sport" inexperienced hunters may be proportionally using more 7mm's due to the TV show, but the caliber isn't the problem, its their inexperience and false beliefs in what they and their equipment is capable of causing them to make poor hits in the first place I would say is the problem.</p><p> When you use what seems to be selectively chosen examples to make forcefully put statements to back up your opinion, you are likely to get emotional responses back in my experience!<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> Greg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NZ Longranger, post: 501807, member: 14"] Man, these caliber debates! They just seem to be the topic that gets people really heated up! I’m sitting here on a wet day working on the next issue and these emails keep popping up from LRH.com telling me there’s new posts on this thread, and I can’t help but get distracted and have to go and have a look at them!:D:D:D LTLR, you have made some pretty definitive statements claiming the 6.5 and 30 amongst others are far better than the 7mm’s at long range for big game. Others have come back and said that there’s not that much difference between them and you’re over stating the case. You base your argument on the 300WM over the 7mm RM on the 30 cal 177 GS and the 180 CE bullets, over the 7mm 170 CE. You state the BC of the 177 GS as .638, but if you look at their website its only that at 3300 fps, and drops to .589, and yet you’re starting them even slower at 3200 fps. Therefore your average BC isn’t going to be anywhere near .638, presuming that’s an accurate BC from GS in the first place. Now I do believe Dan’s average BC’s on his CE’s, and he rates his 180gn 30 cal at .600, and his 170gn 7mm at .620 average. Use realistic MV numbers for the 7mmRM and 300WM for these two and run the ballistics and you’ll come up with sod all of a difference. The 30 cal has 24 thousands of an inch in diameter and 10 grains of bullet weight on its side, but I don’t think you can claim that makes one way better than the other – that’s just not credible! As to the 6.5 example, you have the 130gn Scirocco at a BC of .571 which you’ve said previously makes the 264WM far better than the 7mmRM, and say there are no premium high BC bullets available for the 7mm. Firstly the BC of the 6.5 Scirocco doesn’t come out that high for me, and I have yet to find one of our fast 6.5’s that will shoot them accurately. We have had more success getting the 150gn 7mm to shoot any day than the 6.5mm, but maybe we’ve just been unlucky? CE make 130, 160 and 170 grains in 7mm, with a higher BC’s than the 130gn Scirocco yet they don’t seem to rate a mention this time unlike in the 30 cal example? The CE bullets and the tangental ogives like the Nosler AB’s and Barnes TTSX’s are far easier to get to shoot in most rifles than the likes of the Sciroccos in our experience, and in all these the 7mm’s have better BC’s than the 6.5’s You state poor bullet performance (mainly over expansion) is what’s letting the 7mmRM down at 1000 yards plus, but I’m afraid I would have to disagree. In my experience of shooting many big game animals at long range, beyond 1000 yards its poor placement that lets you down, and secondly under expansion from too hard of a bullet. I have yet to see the bullet of choice in 7mm, something like a 180 Berger or 175 SMK, over expand at 1000 yards plus even on the shoulder bone of a big Red stag which is similar in size to an Elk. As for flattening on a rib bone at this range – that I just struggle to believe. At closer ranges it’s a different story – bullet performance becomes more important, and there the 7mm will beat the 6.5 for the same reasons you say the 30 cal beats the 7mm. But at the ranges talked about here, 1000 yards plus (1200 was the original question) where I believe bullet placement is more important, the higher BC verses velocity potential puts the 7mm’s right up there if not slightly ahead of the 30 and 6.5’s. This is due to the better chance of hitting where you want to, as Bryan Litz says. Personally I don’t believe either the 7mmRM or 300WM should be used on Red stag/Elk sized game at 1200 yards – that is where the 338’s come into their own. We limit these smaller calibers to 800 yards or thereabouts on the big stuff. You have now explained the problem with hunters getting unrealistic expectations from watching the TV shows and running out and trying to shoot beyond their calibers capabilities, which I fully understand is very frustrating and damaging to our sport. But the real culprit here isn’t the caliber, it’s the fact they are shooting beyond their capabilities due to the TV show hype and this would happen no matter the caliber. These sort of "new to the sport" inexperienced hunters may be proportionally using more 7mm’s due to the TV show, but the caliber isn’t the problem, its their inexperience and false beliefs in what they and their equipment is capable of causing them to make poor hits in the first place I would say is the problem. When you use what seems to be selectively chosen examples to make forcefully put statements to back up your opinion, you are likely to get emotional responses back in my experience!:):):) Greg [/QUOTE]
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