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<blockquote data-quote="green 788" data-source="post: 98326" data-attributes="member: 3781"><p>4ked Horn, there are a lot of questions there, but they are good ones. </p><p></p><p>I have not been out west where 1000 yard shots on elk are common. I live in the Eastern US, and the largest critter I've shot at a distance past 600 yards has been a white tail deer at 735 yards. Most of my long range hunting has been on varmints.</p><p></p><p>You mention not wanting to get into a whizzing contest (or something like that)... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That puts me in mind of the ~1000 yard elk thread here a while back, where a whizzing contest ensued shortly after the initial post. Some members raised concerns about whether the kill was humane or not. It turned into a full blown insult trading argument. And I think a couple of over-zealous members got shown the door...</p><p></p><p>I did not join in the commentary on that thread, but read it with interest and actually understood both sides of the debate. This forum is about long range hunting, and that elk thread was certainly about long range hunting--no debate there. But I will say that the guys who legitimately and politely questioned the manner in which that elk was taken had some good points. (I didn't say they were right--just that their points were good ones!) </p><p></p><p>Bringing up that thread is not an attempt to re-open that awful can of worms again. But that thread is a cogent and very memorable reminder of the fact that folks aren't always going to agree on the how's and the whether's of taking game at extreme range.</p><p></p><p>Now I'm going somewhere with this (I think) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif so hang with me.</p><p></p><p>Again, that relatively recent thread helps us to understand that there are strong differences of opinion in matters of range limit and technique. IIRC the rifle used on the afformentioned elk--I believe--was a factory barreled rifle. But I would say that the factory rifle was not the limiting factor there. Conditions and familiarity with the terrain were probably what kept that hunt from being ideal, and follow up shots were needed.</p><p></p><p>If you'll be fair with me, you will notice that I have not offered any advice to members here as to bullet types, chamberings, etc., that they should use on large game beyond 600 yards. I've kept to the Handloading and Optics forums, where I believe I can offer meaningful participation. I'll never speak to the things I have no personal experience with. But if you want to talk about 700+ yard shots on groundhogs and other varmints, I'll be there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif</p><p></p><p>"Hah! We've got him!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Someone (not you, necessarily) says: "He doesn't have much long range experience on big game so his points regarding handloading, rifle types, etc., are to be taken with a grain of salt."</p><p></p><p>If my points cannot stand on their own merit, then they shouldn't be believed. I think that I've offered some useful information on load development, and I also think that I've asked some important questions which--for those who ascribe to benchrest philosophies--should be easy to answer. But rather than getting answers, I generally get derision and the dog-eared mantra "Bring that_______to the next 1000 yard BR comp and we'll see how you do." (The implication there being that when I lose the BR match the why's and wherefore's of distance to lands seating will suddendly be revealed). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </p><p></p><p>When I said <strong>"Most guys who peruse these pages aren't BR types. Accuracy goals and necessary equipment for long range practical shooting aren't compatible or comparable with the benchrest equipment and discipline."</strong> I based that on the truth. Most members here aren't using benchrest rigs to take game at long range. An MOA group at 600 yards will lose big time in a BR comp (unless conditions are awful) but will handily take even a smallish deer at that range.</p><p></p><p>I don't believe you mean that the <em>exact</em> rifles used in 1000 yard BR comps are what should be prescribed for elk at 1000 yards--so I'm not putting words in your mouth. Most of these rifles are 6mm and 6.5 mm max, which would certainly take a back seat to the 30 and 33 caliber magnums for the purpose.</p><p></p><p>For my part, I don't want a single shot rifle in the field. Whether I be hunting varmints, deer, or whatever--I like the ability to chamber another cartridge immediately after the shot, so that I can get back on scope and survey the situation. I have honestly had to use follow up shots on groundhogs! Seriously, I have. I hit one twice at 540 yards last summer and he still wasn't dead when I got to him! 105 AMAX, .243 win, by the way. I would not plan to need a second shot, but I would (again, just me) like to have it immediately available should it be needed.</p><p></p><p>It is a simple matter to build a magazine fed rifle with sub MOA capability. The military sniper rilfes are such (even the 338's and the big 50 BMG's).</p><p></p><p>You also asked what led me to develop the OCW method. Since this post has already gotten a bit verbose, I'll do you and others a favor and save that explantion for later. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif</p><p></p><p>But one more thing: You said <strong>"As I read your posts here and there I notice things that make me wonder if you learned a technique that makes tons of sence to you but because your actual field experience is limited you are having a hard time selling it to others."</strong> I don't understand what technique you're referring to in this sentence. Are you referring to OCW load development? Or opinions I've offered about particular scopes, rifles, etc.? I'm not sure I understand that question... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif</p><p></p><p>Thanks for taking the time to write.</p><p></p><p>Dan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="green 788, post: 98326, member: 3781"] 4ked Horn, there are a lot of questions there, but they are good ones. I have not been out west where 1000 yard shots on elk are common. I live in the Eastern US, and the largest critter I've shot at a distance past 600 yards has been a white tail deer at 735 yards. Most of my long range hunting has been on varmints. You mention not wanting to get into a whizzing contest (or something like that)... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That puts me in mind of the ~1000 yard elk thread here a while back, where a whizzing contest ensued shortly after the initial post. Some members raised concerns about whether the kill was humane or not. It turned into a full blown insult trading argument. And I think a couple of over-zealous members got shown the door... I did not join in the commentary on that thread, but read it with interest and actually understood both sides of the debate. This forum is about long range hunting, and that elk thread was certainly about long range hunting--no debate there. But I will say that the guys who legitimately and politely questioned the manner in which that elk was taken had some good points. (I didn't say they were right--just that their points were good ones!) Bringing up that thread is not an attempt to re-open that awful can of worms again. But that thread is a cogent and very memorable reminder of the fact that folks aren't always going to agree on the how's and the whether's of taking game at extreme range. Now I'm going somewhere with this (I think) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] so hang with me. Again, that relatively recent thread helps us to understand that there are strong differences of opinion in matters of range limit and technique. IIRC the rifle used on the afformentioned elk--I believe--was a factory barreled rifle. But I would say that the factory rifle was not the limiting factor there. Conditions and familiarity with the terrain were probably what kept that hunt from being ideal, and follow up shots were needed. If you'll be fair with me, you will notice that I have not offered any advice to members here as to bullet types, chamberings, etc., that they should use on large game beyond 600 yards. I've kept to the Handloading and Optics forums, where I believe I can offer meaningful participation. I'll never speak to the things I have no personal experience with. But if you want to talk about 700+ yard shots on groundhogs and other varmints, I'll be there. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] "Hah! We've got him!" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Someone (not you, necessarily) says: "He doesn't have much long range experience on big game so his points regarding handloading, rifle types, etc., are to be taken with a grain of salt." If my points cannot stand on their own merit, then they shouldn't be believed. I think that I've offered some useful information on load development, and I also think that I've asked some important questions which--for those who ascribe to benchrest philosophies--should be easy to answer. But rather than getting answers, I generally get derision and the dog-eared mantra "Bring that_______to the next 1000 yard BR comp and we'll see how you do." (The implication there being that when I lose the BR match the why's and wherefore's of distance to lands seating will suddendly be revealed). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] When I said [b]"Most guys who peruse these pages aren't BR types. Accuracy goals and necessary equipment for long range practical shooting aren't compatible or comparable with the benchrest equipment and discipline."[/b] I based that on the truth. Most members here aren't using benchrest rigs to take game at long range. An MOA group at 600 yards will lose big time in a BR comp (unless conditions are awful) but will handily take even a smallish deer at that range. I don't believe you mean that the [i]exact[/i] rifles used in 1000 yard BR comps are what should be prescribed for elk at 1000 yards--so I'm not putting words in your mouth. Most of these rifles are 6mm and 6.5 mm max, which would certainly take a back seat to the 30 and 33 caliber magnums for the purpose. For my part, I don't want a single shot rifle in the field. Whether I be hunting varmints, deer, or whatever--I like the ability to chamber another cartridge immediately after the shot, so that I can get back on scope and survey the situation. I have honestly had to use follow up shots on groundhogs! Seriously, I have. I hit one twice at 540 yards last summer and he still wasn't dead when I got to him! 105 AMAX, .243 win, by the way. I would not plan to need a second shot, but I would (again, just me) like to have it immediately available should it be needed. It is a simple matter to build a magazine fed rifle with sub MOA capability. The military sniper rilfes are such (even the 338's and the big 50 BMG's). You also asked what led me to develop the OCW method. Since this post has already gotten a bit verbose, I'll do you and others a favor and save that explantion for later. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But one more thing: You said [b]"As I read your posts here and there I notice things that make me wonder if you learned a technique that makes tons of sence to you but because your actual field experience is limited you are having a hard time selling it to others."[/b] I don't understand what technique you're referring to in this sentence. Are you referring to OCW load development? Or opinions I've offered about particular scopes, rifles, etc.? I'm not sure I understand that question... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Thanks for taking the time to write. Dan [/QUOTE]
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