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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
wanting to build a "mountain rifle"
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<blockquote data-quote="Jordan Smith" data-source="post: 662743" data-attributes="member: 44423"><p>Yessir! You've also made some very valid points. At the end of the day, there are many options because different folks choose different strokes to accomplish the same thing <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The .338 300gr OTM is a very new bullet. In order to keep things on the razor's edge of technology, let's also use a bullet that is about to be released in 7mm- the 195gr EOL Hybrid. This bullet has a predicted G1 BC of 0.794, and a G7 of 0.406. It shouldn't be a problem to start this bullet at 2850fps from a 7WSM or 7RM that is throated properly, and is built with proper mag latitude. A larger 7mm would obviously push it even faster. JBM gives the 7mm bullet 1709 ft-lbs of energy at 800 yards, and the .338 has 2485 ft-lbs. The 7mm has 1987fps, and the .338 has 1932fps at that range. The .338 drops to 1709 ft-lbs of energy at ~1165 yards. It's velocity is 1605fps at that range (expansion would be very questionable at this impact velocity). </p><p></p><p>There is no question that the .338 has more energy, frontal area, and bullet mass, and is capable of doing more damage. The reason that I mentioned the comparison in the first place, is that many guys wouldn't hesitate to shoot elk and other game beyond 1165 yards with the .338 300gr OTM, at which point its energy would be less than what the 7mm has at 800, and bullet expansion would be minimal if the 300gr bullet impacts at 1605fps, as where the 7mm would likely expand reasonably well at 800 yards, impacting at 1987fps. So if the .338 300gr OTM is the ultimate elk slayer even beyond 1165 yards, then the 7mm 195gr EOL Hybrid should be just as awesome at 800 yards (since expansion at 800 yards will be much better for the 7mm, than the .338 at 1165 yards). </p><p></p><p>Ultimately what I'm saying is, how much horsepower do you need? A VLD or Hybrid that fragments and goes to pieces in the diaphragm is going to do some major damage, whether it started out as a .338 300gr bullet, or a 7mm 195gr bullet. How much the bullet fragments is determined by impact velocity, and the resistance that the bullet meets. A .338 bullet is a fraction of an inch larger in diameter than the 7mm bullet, but if both bullets violently expand, they both will create a wound channel much larger than the original diameter of the bullet. The wound channel is several inches in diameter, as compared to the original bullet diameter of 1/3 of an inch, or less. So I would argue that if both bullets expand violently, they both will destroy a lot of tissue, and the animal is going to die in short order. Now if one of the bullets impacts at a velocity where expansion is questionable, then the other bullet will do more damage.</p><p></p><p>As far as the cost goes, it's not the price of the 1 bullet that you use to kill the animal that is the concern. In order to be proficient enough with either rifle to take shots at 800+ yards, a guy needs to spend a whole lot of time and components practising with that rifle at long range. This is where the cost comes into play. Let's just say that a guy should shoot 1000 rounds before he is ready to shoot at game at 800 yards (including load development, practise, etc). If we take your figure of $0.40 per shot difference between the 7mm and the .338, then that would be $400 difference just to do the amount of practise that we're calling necessary to even start shooting game at 800 yards. If we consider the life of the barrel, maybe 1500-2000 rounds, then that would be $600-800 difference between the two, or roughly enough to pay for a new barrel (or maybe two) when the original burns out.</p><p></p><p>Some guys are okay with wearing magnified hearing protection in the field, (and I own and use a similar set of ear muffs, on occasion) but some guys choose not to. If a guy prefers not to constantly wear something like that in the field, then he needs a rifle that isn't going to blow his ears out. For a dedicated LR rig, you will always have time to put some hearing protection on before squeezing off the shot, but a general-purpose hunting rig might be used for close, quick shots, where there is no time for that. That's the problem with putting 100gr of powder through a braked rifle. You've gotta be willing to wear hearing protection for each and every shot.</p><p></p><p>It's been a fun conversation, and I really think that you can't go wrong with either option. Both will get the job done. If a guy has the skill set to put the bullet where it needs to go, then he's going to be eating steak. If not, then it's a fool's errand to rely on more horsepower to save the day. Hunters shouldn't try to substitute money and power simply because they'd rather not spend the time and effort that are necessary to develop shooting skill at the range. Although, I think this happens far too often. That's just a general comment, not directed toward you in any way.</p><p></p><p>I'd be far more concerned about the bull elk standing in front of Pat Sinclair, with his .260 or .308, at 900 yards, than I would about the one standing in front of the novice with a .338 LM at the same distance. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> Shawn Carlock, Kirby Allen, and others, would also strike a lot more fear with a 6.5x284 than would most fellas holding a big .338.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jordan Smith, post: 662743, member: 44423"] Yessir! You've also made some very valid points. At the end of the day, there are many options because different folks choose different strokes to accomplish the same thing :) The .338 300gr OTM is a very new bullet. In order to keep things on the razor's edge of technology, let's also use a bullet that is about to be released in 7mm- the 195gr EOL Hybrid. This bullet has a predicted G1 BC of 0.794, and a G7 of 0.406. It shouldn't be a problem to start this bullet at 2850fps from a 7WSM or 7RM that is throated properly, and is built with proper mag latitude. A larger 7mm would obviously push it even faster. JBM gives the 7mm bullet 1709 ft-lbs of energy at 800 yards, and the .338 has 2485 ft-lbs. The 7mm has 1987fps, and the .338 has 1932fps at that range. The .338 drops to 1709 ft-lbs of energy at ~1165 yards. It's velocity is 1605fps at that range (expansion would be very questionable at this impact velocity). There is no question that the .338 has more energy, frontal area, and bullet mass, and is capable of doing more damage. The reason that I mentioned the comparison in the first place, is that many guys wouldn't hesitate to shoot elk and other game beyond 1165 yards with the .338 300gr OTM, at which point its energy would be less than what the 7mm has at 800, and bullet expansion would be minimal if the 300gr bullet impacts at 1605fps, as where the 7mm would likely expand reasonably well at 800 yards, impacting at 1987fps. So if the .338 300gr OTM is the ultimate elk slayer even beyond 1165 yards, then the 7mm 195gr EOL Hybrid should be just as awesome at 800 yards (since expansion at 800 yards will be much better for the 7mm, than the .338 at 1165 yards). Ultimately what I'm saying is, how much horsepower do you need? A VLD or Hybrid that fragments and goes to pieces in the diaphragm is going to do some major damage, whether it started out as a .338 300gr bullet, or a 7mm 195gr bullet. How much the bullet fragments is determined by impact velocity, and the resistance that the bullet meets. A .338 bullet is a fraction of an inch larger in diameter than the 7mm bullet, but if both bullets violently expand, they both will create a wound channel much larger than the original diameter of the bullet. The wound channel is several inches in diameter, as compared to the original bullet diameter of 1/3 of an inch, or less. So I would argue that if both bullets expand violently, they both will destroy a lot of tissue, and the animal is going to die in short order. Now if one of the bullets impacts at a velocity where expansion is questionable, then the other bullet will do more damage. As far as the cost goes, it's not the price of the 1 bullet that you use to kill the animal that is the concern. In order to be proficient enough with either rifle to take shots at 800+ yards, a guy needs to spend a whole lot of time and components practising with that rifle at long range. This is where the cost comes into play. Let's just say that a guy should shoot 1000 rounds before he is ready to shoot at game at 800 yards (including load development, practise, etc). If we take your figure of $0.40 per shot difference between the 7mm and the .338, then that would be $400 difference just to do the amount of practise that we're calling necessary to even start shooting game at 800 yards. If we consider the life of the barrel, maybe 1500-2000 rounds, then that would be $600-800 difference between the two, or roughly enough to pay for a new barrel (or maybe two) when the original burns out. Some guys are okay with wearing magnified hearing protection in the field, (and I own and use a similar set of ear muffs, on occasion) but some guys choose not to. If a guy prefers not to constantly wear something like that in the field, then he needs a rifle that isn't going to blow his ears out. For a dedicated LR rig, you will always have time to put some hearing protection on before squeezing off the shot, but a general-purpose hunting rig might be used for close, quick shots, where there is no time for that. That's the problem with putting 100gr of powder through a braked rifle. You've gotta be willing to wear hearing protection for each and every shot. It's been a fun conversation, and I really think that you can't go wrong with either option. Both will get the job done. If a guy has the skill set to put the bullet where it needs to go, then he's going to be eating steak. If not, then it's a fool's errand to rely on more horsepower to save the day. Hunters shouldn't try to substitute money and power simply because they'd rather not spend the time and effort that are necessary to develop shooting skill at the range. Although, I think this happens far too often. That's just a general comment, not directed toward you in any way. I'd be far more concerned about the bull elk standing in front of Pat Sinclair, with his .260 or .308, at 900 yards, than I would about the one standing in front of the novice with a .338 LM at the same distance. ;) Shawn Carlock, Kirby Allen, and others, would also strike a lot more fear with a 6.5x284 than would most fellas holding a big .338. [/QUOTE]
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