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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
Very first ladder test, take a look.
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<blockquote data-quote="BountyHunter" data-source="post: 94367" data-attributes="member: 12"><p>Grit </p><p></p><p>You are correct this is a healthy debate about the merits of the two techniques. I can sum it up like this: OCW is all about getting MOA groups under ideal conditions (Look at Dans website and standards for OCW) while a true ladder is about getting extreme accuracy which is well below the OCW MOA standard. Dan might disagree but that is OK (nothing personal, will buy him a beer and still argue the merits), every one else figure out which way you want to go.</p><p></p><p>If I only had a factory gun and only a 100 yard range then maybe OCW would be viable. However, this is a LR hunting board and it should be safe to assume that we are talking about substantially longer than 100 yards and that most people will have access to longer ranges within an hour or two to do serious testing before taking a gun hunting. I have to drive an hour to test at 300-600 yds so I do all my preliminary testing and zeroing at a local 100 yard range.</p><p></p><p>Good planning figure is that if you are getting .5 MOA at 100, then your distance groups will be 2x that .5MOA. In other words you will have a 10" group at 1000. That is why for LR hunting (past 500 for sure) you want to be in the .2-.3 MOA range as a minimum.</p><p></p><p>I believe that when Dan says that OCW is simply 3x the ladder, that is fundamently incorrect. The only thing he is doing that resembles a ladder is firing increasing powder charges.</p><p></p><p>1. The accuracy standards are different. the standard for OCW is MOA (based on Dans website and previous postings). Ladder goal is sub MOA.</p><p></p><p>2. OCW you do not use a chrono, has no purpose. True Ladder it is key to defining a sweet spot for the barrel on both accuracy and MV. You need both. Normally they coincide but not always. If you know where the MV jumps are they normally coincide with the next jump in pressure so you can avoid dropping off the ragged line of pressue. Using a chrono allows you to plot and define all the jumps. You will find that your shots will jump 20 fps each shot and suddenly 3-4 will be within 10-15 fps of extreme spread and the next shot jumps 20 fps again. You have probably found a tuning node or sweet spot for that barrel. I can tune in the middle of that node and with OCW you have no idea where it is other than it seems to group here.</p><p></p><p>I think that if all you want is MOA, then OCW will give you that, which maybe makes it OK for factory barrels. However, as I stated earlier I can take almost any components and get MOA with a match barrel. If you have a $500 match grade barrel and chamber and you want .2-3 MOA accuracy then OCW and Dans website reloading techniques are left way behind. </p><p></p><p>For example, He states that reaming flashholes for uniformity is waste of time and subject to dispute within the BR community. Got to differ as I shoot LR BR for the past 5 yrs, ranked nationally and most of us do our reloading similar, but we are learning more all the time how to refine and make our loads more uniform and everyone starts with flasholes as the ABCs of reloading. Never heard of any BR competitor not doing it As most flasholes are "punched" it leaves a lip sticking up inside the case and sometimes the lip rolls over the hole and sometimes it is not even open all the way. </p><p></p><p>He does not believe in custom dies. A die that matches your chamber minimally resizes the case preventing overworking the brass and work hardening the necks. Work hardened necks will increase neck tension on the round significantly. Short range BR rounds normally use .001-.002 neck tension while LR BR rounds are normally .0015-.003 and some have found that up to .004-.005 work for flat base bullets. Standard dies will give you about .010 neck tension. Uniform neck tension is the last element to hitting the tightest groups. I am sure that he is not aware that if you neck size cases and let them sit for say two weeks you will get about an extra .001-.0015 spring back, ie loss of tension. .001 variance in neck tension will open a group up. This has been confirmed by top shooters using custom pin guages to accurately measure the exact diameter of the necks and arbor presses with dial indicators on top to measure actual seating force. You can measure neck tension and the seating force exactly now with the right equip.</p><p></p><p>He also does not believe that seating depth plays a role in loading, only as long as all seated the same length on the ogive. He is correct as long as your standard is only MOA.</p><p></p><p> However to get to that sub 1/4 MOA level, .005 seating depth change can open or close a group as much as 3/4 MOA. Seen it and done it too many times to say otherwise. </p><p></p><p>If you are shooting a ladder for a magazine gun then start at max OAL, if you are testing for a gun that will be singly loaded then start the ladder about .030 in the lands for custom VLDs and Sierras and Hornadys just touching. That will be your max pressue points also. As you back off pressure decreases. Most VLDs like to be seating anywhere from .010-.030 in lands, while most Sierras just touching or off as much as .040.</p><p></p><p>BH</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BountyHunter, post: 94367, member: 12"] Grit You are correct this is a healthy debate about the merits of the two techniques. I can sum it up like this: OCW is all about getting MOA groups under ideal conditions (Look at Dans website and standards for OCW) while a true ladder is about getting extreme accuracy which is well below the OCW MOA standard. Dan might disagree but that is OK (nothing personal, will buy him a beer and still argue the merits), every one else figure out which way you want to go. If I only had a factory gun and only a 100 yard range then maybe OCW would be viable. However, this is a LR hunting board and it should be safe to assume that we are talking about substantially longer than 100 yards and that most people will have access to longer ranges within an hour or two to do serious testing before taking a gun hunting. I have to drive an hour to test at 300-600 yds so I do all my preliminary testing and zeroing at a local 100 yard range. Good planning figure is that if you are getting .5 MOA at 100, then your distance groups will be 2x that .5MOA. In other words you will have a 10" group at 1000. That is why for LR hunting (past 500 for sure) you want to be in the .2-.3 MOA range as a minimum. I believe that when Dan says that OCW is simply 3x the ladder, that is fundamently incorrect. The only thing he is doing that resembles a ladder is firing increasing powder charges. 1. The accuracy standards are different. the standard for OCW is MOA (based on Dans website and previous postings). Ladder goal is sub MOA. 2. OCW you do not use a chrono, has no purpose. True Ladder it is key to defining a sweet spot for the barrel on both accuracy and MV. You need both. Normally they coincide but not always. If you know where the MV jumps are they normally coincide with the next jump in pressure so you can avoid dropping off the ragged line of pressue. Using a chrono allows you to plot and define all the jumps. You will find that your shots will jump 20 fps each shot and suddenly 3-4 will be within 10-15 fps of extreme spread and the next shot jumps 20 fps again. You have probably found a tuning node or sweet spot for that barrel. I can tune in the middle of that node and with OCW you have no idea where it is other than it seems to group here. I think that if all you want is MOA, then OCW will give you that, which maybe makes it OK for factory barrels. However, as I stated earlier I can take almost any components and get MOA with a match barrel. If you have a $500 match grade barrel and chamber and you want .2-3 MOA accuracy then OCW and Dans website reloading techniques are left way behind. For example, He states that reaming flashholes for uniformity is waste of time and subject to dispute within the BR community. Got to differ as I shoot LR BR for the past 5 yrs, ranked nationally and most of us do our reloading similar, but we are learning more all the time how to refine and make our loads more uniform and everyone starts with flasholes as the ABCs of reloading. Never heard of any BR competitor not doing it As most flasholes are "punched" it leaves a lip sticking up inside the case and sometimes the lip rolls over the hole and sometimes it is not even open all the way. He does not believe in custom dies. A die that matches your chamber minimally resizes the case preventing overworking the brass and work hardening the necks. Work hardened necks will increase neck tension on the round significantly. Short range BR rounds normally use .001-.002 neck tension while LR BR rounds are normally .0015-.003 and some have found that up to .004-.005 work for flat base bullets. Standard dies will give you about .010 neck tension. Uniform neck tension is the last element to hitting the tightest groups. I am sure that he is not aware that if you neck size cases and let them sit for say two weeks you will get about an extra .001-.0015 spring back, ie loss of tension. .001 variance in neck tension will open a group up. This has been confirmed by top shooters using custom pin guages to accurately measure the exact diameter of the necks and arbor presses with dial indicators on top to measure actual seating force. You can measure neck tension and the seating force exactly now with the right equip. He also does not believe that seating depth plays a role in loading, only as long as all seated the same length on the ogive. He is correct as long as your standard is only MOA. However to get to that sub 1/4 MOA level, .005 seating depth change can open or close a group as much as 3/4 MOA. Seen it and done it too many times to say otherwise. If you are shooting a ladder for a magazine gun then start at max OAL, if you are testing for a gun that will be singly loaded then start the ladder about .030 in the lands for custom VLDs and Sierras and Hornadys just touching. That will be your max pressue points also. As you back off pressure decreases. Most VLDs like to be seating anywhere from .010-.030 in lands, while most Sierras just touching or off as much as .040. BH [/QUOTE]
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Very first ladder test, take a look.
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