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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
Very first ladder test, take a look.
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<blockquote data-quote="BountyHunter" data-source="post: 94228" data-attributes="member: 12"><p>There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the ladder/audette method here and its supposed problems. </p><p></p><p>It is not just firing a ladder rapid fire in windy conditions and looking for POI. To do it correctly, basic common sense has to apply. You have to use the chrono results also. You will find that the POI clusters and the MV clusters are usually on the same bullets. </p><p></p><p>Second it is not about getting "MOA results under ideal conditions". With a match grade barrel and decent bench techiques, you can almost load the bullets backwards and use a powder dipper and get that.</p><p></p><p>The concern about "did I pull one" is there in any method and you just have to be honest with yourself. </p><p></p><p>As for fouling shots, barrel warming, wind conditions etc. Simple common sense will solve those. Shoot 5-15 foulers. Got to zero on a second target prior to ladder anyway. Time shots at 1 minute intervals. Match guns now go all weekend shooting 100-200 shots w/o cleaning and still shoot tight groups so I fail to see how shooting 20-30 rds over a 30 minute interval is anything but an imaginary issue. If your gun cannot do that accurately, then you have other issues with your gun besides a load. 1 minute interval is easy when plotting bullet POI separate sheet and recording MV. Same time check cases for pressure signs and expansion.</p><p></p><p>It is stupid in my opinion to attempt to do any serious load testing in "windy" conditions. Test early morning and late evening no wind times.</p><p></p><p>IF you apply a modicum of common sense to your testing protocals, you will find that a chrono and ladder test will give you a minimum of two sweet spots that allows you to pick a MV with a given sweet spot, it will show you its upper and lower edges of powder and fine tune a powder charge in the middle to eliminate many temp related pressure variations (as long as not using temp sensitive powder) and lastly and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will give you extreme accuracy (sub moa) for your gun.</p><p></p><p>Here is a specific example. Set up a 300 WSM shooting 187 (flatbase) Bibs, MRP powder. Ladder (14 shots) from 64.5 to 68.4 gr at .3 intervals at 400 yds.</p><p></p><p>I got POI clusters for rds 6,7,8 of 3/4" and MV of 2947-2957</p><p>second cluster of rds 11, 12, 13 of 3/4 and MV of 2994-3007</p><p></p><p>I was shooting a flat base bullet of .520 BC so went with the higher MV. My original target range was 3000-3075 fps.</p><p></p><p>took the second cluster and shot 5 shot groups at .1 gr intervals which ended up with 67.8 gr MRP with as in the middle of the cluster and close to #12.</p><p></p><p>NOTE: no pressure signs on primer, case head or case body expansion so I could have gone higher and possibly found a higher sweet spot. Another test later.</p><p></p><p>Once powder charge was determined, 4 more groups testing seating depth was shot. </p><p></p><p>I knew this bullet required .003 neck tension so I did not test variations. Might later.</p><p></p><p>This was done over three evenings, total shots fired was 66 rds to include zero at 100 and 400 before shooting the ladder. All groups were fired through a chrono confirming MV avgs, ES and SD each time. This confirmed that I had a uniform powder charge etc. </p><p></p><p>End result .2 MOA at 400. MV 3005 fps, ES 13.1 and SD of 5.8</p><p>Two days later the gun took 4th at PA 1000 Yard World Open out of 130 plus shooters.</p><p></p><p>Bottom line, is the ladder method does not have all the imagined flaws if you understand it and use common sense.</p><p></p><p>BH</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BountyHunter, post: 94228, member: 12"] There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the ladder/audette method here and its supposed problems. It is not just firing a ladder rapid fire in windy conditions and looking for POI. To do it correctly, basic common sense has to apply. You have to use the chrono results also. You will find that the POI clusters and the MV clusters are usually on the same bullets. Second it is not about getting "MOA results under ideal conditions". With a match grade barrel and decent bench techiques, you can almost load the bullets backwards and use a powder dipper and get that. The concern about "did I pull one" is there in any method and you just have to be honest with yourself. As for fouling shots, barrel warming, wind conditions etc. Simple common sense will solve those. Shoot 5-15 foulers. Got to zero on a second target prior to ladder anyway. Time shots at 1 minute intervals. Match guns now go all weekend shooting 100-200 shots w/o cleaning and still shoot tight groups so I fail to see how shooting 20-30 rds over a 30 minute interval is anything but an imaginary issue. If your gun cannot do that accurately, then you have other issues with your gun besides a load. 1 minute interval is easy when plotting bullet POI separate sheet and recording MV. Same time check cases for pressure signs and expansion. It is stupid in my opinion to attempt to do any serious load testing in "windy" conditions. Test early morning and late evening no wind times. IF you apply a modicum of common sense to your testing protocals, you will find that a chrono and ladder test will give you a minimum of two sweet spots that allows you to pick a MV with a given sweet spot, it will show you its upper and lower edges of powder and fine tune a powder charge in the middle to eliminate many temp related pressure variations (as long as not using temp sensitive powder) and lastly and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will give you extreme accuracy (sub moa) for your gun. Here is a specific example. Set up a 300 WSM shooting 187 (flatbase) Bibs, MRP powder. Ladder (14 shots) from 64.5 to 68.4 gr at .3 intervals at 400 yds. I got POI clusters for rds 6,7,8 of 3/4" and MV of 2947-2957 second cluster of rds 11, 12, 13 of 3/4 and MV of 2994-3007 I was shooting a flat base bullet of .520 BC so went with the higher MV. My original target range was 3000-3075 fps. took the second cluster and shot 5 shot groups at .1 gr intervals which ended up with 67.8 gr MRP with as in the middle of the cluster and close to #12. NOTE: no pressure signs on primer, case head or case body expansion so I could have gone higher and possibly found a higher sweet spot. Another test later. Once powder charge was determined, 4 more groups testing seating depth was shot. I knew this bullet required .003 neck tension so I did not test variations. Might later. This was done over three evenings, total shots fired was 66 rds to include zero at 100 and 400 before shooting the ladder. All groups were fired through a chrono confirming MV avgs, ES and SD each time. This confirmed that I had a uniform powder charge etc. End result .2 MOA at 400. MV 3005 fps, ES 13.1 and SD of 5.8 Two days later the gun took 4th at PA 1000 Yard World Open out of 130 plus shooters. Bottom line, is the ladder method does not have all the imagined flaws if you understand it and use common sense. BH [/QUOTE]
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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
Very first ladder test, take a look.
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