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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Muzzleloader Hunting
Question. . . .44 or .45 cal. bullets ? ? ?
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<blockquote data-quote="STEEL SLINGER" data-source="post: 1077145" data-attributes="member: 42414"><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> <a href="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML1.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">I finally received all the items I was in search of (almost) to begin my quest and the free time to experiment. . .what bullet/load combination does my T/C Encore like to chew up and spit out! At nearly $330.00 later and the better part of the whole weekend (minus my morning Thunder Chicken hunts) I have found my pet load. It is the Hornady .430" 300 grain XTP in a Harvester Crush Rib Sabot on top of 80 grains (by weight) of Blackhorn 209 with a CCI 209M primer to kick things off. I am unsure of the muzzle velocity, but I'm pretty sure it is in the 1900/2000 fps range. The rifle will consistently print 1" to 1 ¼" 3 shot groups at 100 yards and 4" groups 11" low at 200 yards. What has really sealed the deal for me and this load was my Bullet Trap Test, it performed better than what I was expecting as I well explain further in this post.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Let me begin by stating everything that I used to conduct my experiment. I ordered 7 brands/types of bullets; Barnes 290gr.TMZ, Hornady .452 300gr. XTP, Hornady .452 250gr. FTX, Hornady .430 265gr. FTX, Hornady .430 300gr. XTP, Scorpion PT Gold 300 gr. and lastly the Sierra .429 300gr JSP. For sabots I had MMP's for .44/50 and .45/50 in the 12 and 24 and the Harvester Crush Rib in the .44/50 green and the .45/50 black also the blue sabot that came with the Barnes bullet. Using only Blackhorn 209 powder being ignited by CCI 209M primers, I weighted charges on a Dillon electronic scale from 70 grains to 95 grains, swapped sabots around for each proper bullet diameter, swabbed the barrel clean after each 5 round string and shot from a cold barrel. This was all done off a bench with sand bags shooting at 100 yards.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Much to my surprise, the Barnes 290gr. did the worst in the accuracy dept! I shot this one first because it was the one I really wanted to make work. . .and I couldn't. Best was 3" 5 shot group at 100 yards, but that seemed to be the norm using the .45 caliber bullets in any combination although the Hornady 250gr. FTX I did get to 2" with a few different loads. I also noticed that the black .45/50 sabots would be on the ground 50 to 60 feet in front of my bench where as the .44/50 sabots would be closer; Harvester Crush Rib about 12/15 feet and the MMP's about 18/20 feet. I could not get excited with any of the .45 caliber bullets? ? ? The Hornady .430 265gr. FTX made it in to the 1 ½" to 2" realm and I might give it another look-see. The Sierra .429 300gr. JSP would have 3 of the 5 from the group in 1 ½" and then 2 of them would be somewhere an inch or so away. . .in no particular order either. I kinda had high hopes for this bullet too, but can't deal with the fliers.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Now on to the star of this little show. . .the Hornady .430 300gr. XTP. I had no expectations for this bullet, but I read many pros-n-cons about it and they were on sale at MidwayUSA so I said, what the heck. This bullet shot well with both sabot brands, but with the MMP's it shot better at 70 grains of powder than the stouter loads. Then after playing with it a bit I came up with the best consistent grouping at 80 grains of powder with the Crush Rib sabot. I was impressed with the groups, but in the back of my mind I was also thinking of the "negative" things I read regarding this bullet. So now I have to put my mind at ease and conduct my own bullet construction integrity test. Now on to the Bullet Trap Test! ! !</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">Mostly what I see and read is people shooting into water filled milk jugs, pals of dirt or clay hillsides. The water jug test to me doesn't compare to a critter's anatomy and shooting into dirt/clay is just too harsh of a media and again, doesn't compare to a critter's anatomy. My bullet trap is "BY NO MEANS" critter anatomy either, but I feel is a better representation than the later two. It is made from a 5/8" plywood box measuring 16"x16"x36" long, it sorta looks like a fish tank. The face of this bullet trap was made so it "somewhat" represents the broadside shoulder construction of a average whitetail deer; The outside skin is 3 layers of 1/8" linoleum flooring to represent the deer's skin. Then under that is a 2" thick (when dry) local phone book that I soaked in water until saturated, this would be the mussel between the hide and shoulder blade/rib cage and this is placed on top of a ¾" piece of pressure treated plywood which represents the shoulder blade/rib cage. This sandwich has the outside perimeter screwed together holding this to the frame of the bullet trap. Now for my media ? ? ? I had several thoughts on what to use, but didn't really have enough of any one thing to tightly fill my box. . .then walking back from my shop I noticed all the Spanish moss hanging from my trees and I had plenty of that! What I did was take a 60 gal. trash can liner and put it inside the box. Filled it with paper from my office shredder (about 25% volume), cut up t-shirts (about 20% volume) and the balance with the Spanish moss (about 65% volume), this is all mixed together and tightly packed, then I filled the box with water and let it soak for about an hour, I then placed a piece of plywood on top of the inside media and placed a concrete block on top to compact this mess. This would represent the deer's insides and fluids. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> <a href="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML4.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML4.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"> <a href="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML5.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></span></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">My first 3 shots where at 100 yards and I picked different areas on the target face as not to be so close to one another. My partner that was helping me said that each time a bullet hit the target the concrete block would raise up about 6" to 8". After those shots we went down and start going over the media with his metal detector to locate the slugs. We found all three slugs at a depth of 23 to 26 inches deep into the media! A perfect mushroom of copper petals with shiny lead and the lead core was soundly intact. . .YES, much better than what I was expecting. We patched up the holes and placed another trash bag liner in the trap along with the bag of media, filled with water with block on top and began the 50 yard shoot. 3 shots again and this time penetration was not as deep, only 18 to 22 inches into the media. Bullets had a more violent mushroom to them, but they were intact . . .no jacket core separation. After this little experiment I had a better feeling of the on game performance of the .430 300gr. XTP. Something else that was puzzling to me was the target face had pulled loose from the box frame. This was ¾" plywood screwed together with 2 ½" deck screws (4 to an edge) into the 2x4 frame work. Why would it exert force backwards also when it was launching the concrete block upwards? Upwards would have been the least path of resistance of force exertion, yes? Maybe someone could answer this for me?</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">I returned home and put the recovered bullets on my scale. The 100 yard bullets averaged 262.8 grains for an 87.5% weight retention. . .not bad. The 50 yard bullets averaged 219.2 grains for a 73% weight retention. . .still not bad. I also put 5 unfired bullets across the scale and that weight averaged 300.08 grains. . .just for giggles. All in all I feel confident with this bullet/load combination in my rifle for deer, caribou, black bear and most critters of this size. Elk and moose. . .maybe at ranges of 75 to 125 yards, no closer and no further. This concludes my little muzzleloader experiment. Hope it may have been of some use to others as it was for me. I enjoyed it! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> <a href="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML3.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></span></span></p><p><a href="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML2.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="STEEL SLINGER, post: 1077145, member: 42414"] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [URL="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML1.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML1.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]I finally received all the items I was in search of (almost) to begin my quest and the free time to experiment. . .what bullet/load combination does my T/C Encore like to chew up and spit out! At nearly $330.00 later and the better part of the whole weekend (minus my morning Thunder Chicken hunts) I have found my pet load. It is the Hornady .430” 300 grain XTP in a Harvester Crush Rib Sabot on top of 80 grains (by weight) of Blackhorn 209 with a CCI 209M primer to kick things off. I am unsure of the muzzle velocity, but I’m pretty sure it is in the 1900/2000 fps range. The rifle will consistently print 1” to 1 ¼” 3 shot groups at 100 yards and 4” groups 11” low at 200 yards. What has really sealed the deal for me and this load was my Bullet Trap Test, it performed better than what I was expecting as I well explain further in this post.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Let me begin by stating everything that I used to conduct my experiment. I ordered 7 brands/types of bullets; Barnes 290gr.TMZ, Hornady .452 300gr. XTP, Hornady .452 250gr. FTX, Hornady .430 265gr. FTX, Hornady .430 300gr. XTP, Scorpion PT Gold 300 gr. and lastly the Sierra .429 300gr JSP. For sabots I had MMP’s for .44/50 and .45/50 in the 12 and 24 and the Harvester Crush Rib in the .44/50 green and the .45/50 black also the blue sabot that came with the Barnes bullet. Using only Blackhorn 209 powder being ignited by CCI 209M primers, I weighted charges on a Dillon electronic scale from 70 grains to 95 grains, swapped sabots around for each proper bullet diameter, swabbed the barrel clean after each 5 round string and shot from a cold barrel. This was all done off a bench with sand bags shooting at 100 yards.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Much to my surprise, the Barnes 290gr. did the worst in the accuracy dept! I shot this one first because it was the one I really wanted to make work. . .and I couldn’t. Best was 3” 5 shot group at 100 yards, but that seemed to be the norm using the .45 caliber bullets in any combination although the Hornady 250gr. FTX I did get to 2” with a few different loads. I also noticed that the black .45/50 sabots would be on the ground 50 to 60 feet in front of my bench where as the .44/50 sabots would be closer; Harvester Crush Rib about 12/15 feet and the MMP’s about 18/20 feet. I could not get excited with any of the .45 caliber bullets? ? ? The Hornady .430 265gr. FTX made it in to the 1 ½” to 2” realm and I might give it another look-see. The Sierra .429 300gr. JSP would have 3 of the 5 from the group in 1 ½” and then 2 of them would be somewhere an inch or so away. . .in no particular order either. I kinda had high hopes for this bullet too, but can’t deal with the fliers.[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Now on to the star of this little show. . .the Hornady .430 300gr. XTP. I had no expectations for this bullet, but I read many pros-n-cons about it and they were on sale at MidwayUSA so I said, what the heck. This bullet shot well with both sabot brands, but with the MMP’s it shot better at 70 grains of powder than the stouter loads. Then after playing with it a bit I came up with the best consistent grouping at 80 grains of powder with the Crush Rib sabot. I was impressed with the groups, but in the back of my mind I was also thinking of the “negative” things I read regarding this bullet. So now I have to put my mind at ease and conduct my own bullet construction integrity test. Now on to the Bullet Trap Test! ! ![/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]Mostly what I see and read is people shooting into water filled milk jugs, pals of dirt or clay hillsides. The water jug test to me doesn’t compare to a critter’s anatomy and shooting into dirt/clay is just too harsh of a media and again, doesn’t compare to a critter’s anatomy. My bullet trap is “BY NO MEANS” critter anatomy either, but I feel is a better representation than the later two. It is made from a 5/8” plywood box measuring 16”x16”x36” long, it sorta looks like a fish tank. The face of this bullet trap was made so it “somewhat” represents the broadside shoulder construction of a average whitetail deer; The outside skin is 3 layers of 1/8” linoleum flooring to represent the deer’s skin. Then under that is a 2” thick (when dry) local phone book that I soaked in water until saturated, this would be the mussel between the hide and shoulder blade/rib cage and this is placed on top of a ¾” piece of pressure treated plywood which represents the shoulder blade/rib cage. This sandwich has the outside perimeter screwed together holding this to the frame of the bullet trap. Now for my media ? ? ? I had several thoughts on what to use, but didn’t really have enough of any one thing to tightly fill my box. . .then walking back from my shop I noticed all the Spanish moss hanging from my trees and I had plenty of that! What I did was take a 60 gal. trash can liner and put it inside the box. Filled it with paper from my office shredder (about 25% volume), cut up t-shirts (about 20% volume) and the balance with the Spanish moss (about 65% volume), this is all mixed together and tightly packed, then I filled the box with water and let it soak for about an hour, I then placed a piece of plywood on top of the inside media and placed a concrete block on top to compact this mess. This would represent the deer’s insides and fluids. [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [URL="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML4.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML4.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Calibri] [URL="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML5.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML5.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]My first 3 shots where at 100 yards and I picked different areas on the target face as not to be so close to one another. My partner that was helping me said that each time a bullet hit the target the concrete block would raise up about 6” to 8”. After those shots we went down and start going over the media with his metal detector to locate the slugs. We found all three slugs at a depth of 23 to 26 inches deep into the media! A perfect mushroom of copper petals with shiny lead and the lead core was soundly intact. . .YES, much better than what I was expecting. We patched up the holes and placed another trash bag liner in the trap along with the bag of media, filled with water with block on top and began the 50 yard shoot. 3 shots again and this time penetration was not as deep, only 18 to 22 inches into the media. Bullets had a more violent mushroom to them, but they were intact . . .no jacket core separation. After this little experiment I had a better feeling of the on game performance of the .430 300gr. XTP. Something else that was puzzling to me was the target face had pulled loose from the box frame. This was ¾” plywood screwed together with 2 ½” deck screws (4 to an edge) into the 2x4 frame work. Why would it exert force backwards also when it was launching the concrete block upwards? Upwards would have been the least path of resistance of force exertion, yes? Maybe someone could answer this for me?[/FONT] [FONT=Calibri]I returned home and put the recovered bullets on my scale. The 100 yard bullets averaged 262.8 grains for an 87.5% weight retention. . .not bad. The 50 yard bullets averaged 219.2 grains for a 73% weight retention. . .still not bad. I also put 5 unfired bullets across the scale and that weight averaged 300.08 grains. . .just for giggles. All in all I feel confident with this bullet/load combination in my rifle for deer, caribou, black bear and most critters of this size. Elk and moose. . .maybe at ranges of 75 to 125 yards, no closer and no further. This concludes my little muzzleloader experiment. Hope it may have been of some use to others as it was for me. I enjoyed it! [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3] [URL="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML3.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML3.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/SIZE][/FONT] [URL="http://s926.photobucket.com/user/THE_CaptOffshore/media/ML2.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad107/THE_CaptOffshore/ML2.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [/QUOTE]
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Question. . . .44 or .45 cal. bullets ? ? ?
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