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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
OCW vs Ladder Test; the significance of the "scatter group"
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<blockquote data-quote="BountyHunter" data-source="post: 98521" data-attributes="member: 12"><p><strong>Re: OCW vs Ladder Test; the significance of the \"scatter group\"</strong></p><p></p><p>Dan</p><p></p><p>OK I give, OCW will give you as you describe "practical rifle accuracy of .5-1 MOA and 1 to 1.5 MOA at 1000 as stated on your forum.</p><p></p><p>However, if you want extreme accuracy use the ladder and a chrono. It is amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that most ladders are done with a chrono and give twice as accurate data as the OCW without a chrono.</p><p></p><p>It is disengenous to only compare half of the ladder process to OCW. You conveniently forget to mention that most knowledgable shooters who shoot the ladder use a chrono which confirms a node with close MV along with the similar POI.</p><p></p><p>I have have shot ladders with clusters of 4-5 shots into 1/3 MOA at 300 and extreme spreads on the MV of 15 fps. My ladder clusters beat normal OCW groups.</p><p></p><p>How do I do that well I use a modicum of commen sense which OCW does not think exists. As I see it if you have a factory gun and no chrono and want .5-1 MOA or MOB (Minute of 5 gallon bucket at 800) use OCW because it gives you something. However if you are after extreme accuracy OCW is significant handicap. OCW is based on people being stupid (ie when and how to test) and not knowing if their gun has a bad or good barrel. </p><p></p><p>So everyone can pick the accuracy standard they want and methodology.</p><p></p><p>Lets look at why I think the ladder with chrono beats OCW.</p><p></p><p>1. I test in early mornings/late evening NO-Wind conditions. There goes the need to worry about wind blowing one off. I use wind flags all the way out to confirm.</p><p></p><p>2. As for barrel warming and fouling, that is only a problem in extremely poor barrels. Custom match grade barrels with "one shot a minute" will not heat up and "walk shots" nor foul as we shoot matches of 80-120 shots with extreme accuracy not MOB as defined by OCW.</p><p></p><p>3. Now lets talk human factors, my HG weighs 65 lbs and has 2 oz trigger, and is set of with super light touch. No human factor there. Other custom guns are shot from front rest (yes even sporters) and rear bags. A true custom gun will shoot bug hole groups at 100 yds with just about any load that no one is going to perform a adequate analysis on as OCW says. So that is a human factor against OCW and really accurate guns. </p><p></p><p>But lets say it is correct, I will spot it more readily at 300 than anyone else will at 100. Not to mention what it will show on the chrono. I am sure that it will shot a MV anonoly that automaticlly throws it out anyway. If I cannot get my all of the MVs to cluster with my POI I keep looking.</p><p></p><p>As for the "scatter group" with practical rifles, bipods and such, I would bet that many of those throw outs ie scatter shots are inherent inaccuracies of the barrel or the human factors. Why is it that the ladder is the only technique afflicted with those problems?</p><p></p><p>OCW says you do not look at the lower nodes because you want more velocity. However in the extreme accuracy game many of the guns shoot the best at the lower nodes and throat erosion is minimized. Once again a case of not knowing the extreme accuracy game which has readily evident recently.</p><p></p><p>In the extreme accuracy and LR game we tend to use custom actions that are much stronger than the practical rifle, we use minimum SAAMI chambers, neck turn and things that do not work the brass, we seat out in the lands which reduces pressures. We can end up running much higher loads than out of the book with less pressure signs than a practical factory rifle. </p><p></p><p>Therefore in our ladder testing, we occasionally run into 3 and 4 nodes on a 20-30 shot string and the upper one is often above the "books" recommended. So I see how Dan has never seen this as OCW stays in the norms of the reloading manuals with "practical rifles and practical calibers" where as the LR game often uses wildcats and data often does not even exist. </p><p></p><p>You cannot load develop for those calibers without a chrono which OCW says is not needed.</p><p></p><p>A supposed advantage of OCW is you only need 100 yards. Now this is a LR forum, and no one should be shooting LR w/o testing LR ie past 100 yards, so if you have to test loads past 100 why limit yourself to load development at 100 so again no advantage to OCW.</p><p></p><p>Bottom line as I see it OCW is a poor attempt counter "percieved human factors, poor barrels, no chrono" because they think everyone must be afflicted with than and obviously the knowledge of the extreme accuracy game and LR hunting is not there. That means there is absolutely not one bit of first hand experience at extreme accuracy, yet somehow we are to believe that OCW is the cure of all ills, because he could not get the ladder to work. It is like coming on a NASCAR forum talking about basic engine tuning. Look around the internet, I have yet to see one LR competitor, Palma, Fclass, Highpower, BR etc say OCW is the ticket. Why? OCW is for the practical rifle and inexperienced rifleman and reloader at best. If your shooting methodology fits that pattern then OCW is for you. </p><p></p><p>BH</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BountyHunter, post: 98521, member: 12"] [b]Re: OCW vs Ladder Test; the significance of the \"scatter group\"[/b] Dan OK I give, OCW will give you as you describe "practical rifle accuracy of .5-1 MOA and 1 to 1.5 MOA at 1000 as stated on your forum. However, if you want extreme accuracy use the ladder and a chrono. It is amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that most ladders are done with a chrono and give twice as accurate data as the OCW without a chrono. It is disengenous to only compare half of the ladder process to OCW. You conveniently forget to mention that most knowledgable shooters who shoot the ladder use a chrono which confirms a node with close MV along with the similar POI. I have have shot ladders with clusters of 4-5 shots into 1/3 MOA at 300 and extreme spreads on the MV of 15 fps. My ladder clusters beat normal OCW groups. How do I do that well I use a modicum of commen sense which OCW does not think exists. As I see it if you have a factory gun and no chrono and want .5-1 MOA or MOB (Minute of 5 gallon bucket at 800) use OCW because it gives you something. However if you are after extreme accuracy OCW is significant handicap. OCW is based on people being stupid (ie when and how to test) and not knowing if their gun has a bad or good barrel. So everyone can pick the accuracy standard they want and methodology. Lets look at why I think the ladder with chrono beats OCW. 1. I test in early mornings/late evening NO-Wind conditions. There goes the need to worry about wind blowing one off. I use wind flags all the way out to confirm. 2. As for barrel warming and fouling, that is only a problem in extremely poor barrels. Custom match grade barrels with "one shot a minute" will not heat up and "walk shots" nor foul as we shoot matches of 80-120 shots with extreme accuracy not MOB as defined by OCW. 3. Now lets talk human factors, my HG weighs 65 lbs and has 2 oz trigger, and is set of with super light touch. No human factor there. Other custom guns are shot from front rest (yes even sporters) and rear bags. A true custom gun will shoot bug hole groups at 100 yds with just about any load that no one is going to perform a adequate analysis on as OCW says. So that is a human factor against OCW and really accurate guns. But lets say it is correct, I will spot it more readily at 300 than anyone else will at 100. Not to mention what it will show on the chrono. I am sure that it will shot a MV anonoly that automaticlly throws it out anyway. If I cannot get my all of the MVs to cluster with my POI I keep looking. As for the "scatter group" with practical rifles, bipods and such, I would bet that many of those throw outs ie scatter shots are inherent inaccuracies of the barrel or the human factors. Why is it that the ladder is the only technique afflicted with those problems? OCW says you do not look at the lower nodes because you want more velocity. However in the extreme accuracy game many of the guns shoot the best at the lower nodes and throat erosion is minimized. Once again a case of not knowing the extreme accuracy game which has readily evident recently. In the extreme accuracy and LR game we tend to use custom actions that are much stronger than the practical rifle, we use minimum SAAMI chambers, neck turn and things that do not work the brass, we seat out in the lands which reduces pressures. We can end up running much higher loads than out of the book with less pressure signs than a practical factory rifle. Therefore in our ladder testing, we occasionally run into 3 and 4 nodes on a 20-30 shot string and the upper one is often above the "books" recommended. So I see how Dan has never seen this as OCW stays in the norms of the reloading manuals with "practical rifles and practical calibers" where as the LR game often uses wildcats and data often does not even exist. You cannot load develop for those calibers without a chrono which OCW says is not needed. A supposed advantage of OCW is you only need 100 yards. Now this is a LR forum, and no one should be shooting LR w/o testing LR ie past 100 yards, so if you have to test loads past 100 why limit yourself to load development at 100 so again no advantage to OCW. Bottom line as I see it OCW is a poor attempt counter "percieved human factors, poor barrels, no chrono" because they think everyone must be afflicted with than and obviously the knowledge of the extreme accuracy game and LR hunting is not there. That means there is absolutely not one bit of first hand experience at extreme accuracy, yet somehow we are to believe that OCW is the cure of all ills, because he could not get the ladder to work. It is like coming on a NASCAR forum talking about basic engine tuning. Look around the internet, I have yet to see one LR competitor, Palma, Fclass, Highpower, BR etc say OCW is the ticket. Why? OCW is for the practical rifle and inexperienced rifleman and reloader at best. If your shooting methodology fits that pattern then OCW is for you. BH [/QUOTE]
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OCW vs Ladder Test; the significance of the "scatter group"
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