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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Need some Bullet Advice for Elk
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<blockquote data-quote="Charles A" data-source="post: 82908" data-attributes="member: 231"><p>First the personal stuff.</p><p></p><p>Derek, I think your taking what I'm saying the wrong way. I never said <u>YOUR</u> <u>expierences</u> , I said your "accounts". I have no doubt you saw what you saw. I have doubts <em>they</em> saw what they think they saw. </p><p> I never called you a liar, I'm very sorry I came off that way. You have no way of knowing I do what I say I do, unless you come and see it, which your welcome too, but if you do a search of my name I think you'll find quite a few instances where I said, I suck, I F-ed up. I sucked here, because you have taken what I said personal, and that was, and is, not my intention. I really hope you dont leave the thread as I am learning from it, and you, and would like to keep discusing it. In any case have on you antelope hunt, I hope you get a big one. With no bullet failures /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Now the debate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif</p><p></p><p>You say you've had good expierences with BTips. You've shot quite a few deer with them, and have a prtty good understanding of what to expect. Now say on some forum someone says(not you, dont take it that way) "I heard from this guy at work theve shot 13 deer right behind the shoulder, absulutly perfect shots, with 180grBT and that bullet penciled right through on every one of them". Would you believe him? Would it be different if he said they blewup on the skin and didnt even make it to the ribs? Bullets fail, all bullets. I never said they <em>never</em> fail, I said they didnt. Theres a difference. It would be the same as if I told you you arent going to win the lottery. Does that mean its impossible? No of course not. It means a billion to one odds, <em>it doesnt happen.</em> That has been my point this whole time. If that deer you were watching through the glass had been shot by a partition, would your first thought have been, bullet failure? Would you then tell people that partitions are prone to fail on deer size game? Or would you say wow thats wierd, million to one. Its the problem I have, the MK is a proven bullet, Sierra may not say it publicly, but you can ask anyone of there techs, especially Rich Macholz, and they'll tell you they are a great deer bullet. Just as dakor has found out.</p><p></p><p>As far as not being able to recover deer where the bullet did not expand, thats a two part answer.</p><p></p><p>First, MK's tip closing up, sure its possible. But then when it hits a denser median, ie.- 90% water(flesh), due to the base of the bullet being heavier, and wanting to travel first, it will tumble, and at all but the lowest velocities will fragment creating massive damage, that is when we get baskettball size wounds. That is why I asked if the animal was recovered, it goes into the second part:</p><p></p><p>Even if the bullet didnt expand, and defied science, and didnt tumble, it still creates hydrostatic shock, tearing tissue(above about 2,000fps), and leaving a hole. In any case it still creates more damage then a broadhead, and not even comparable to a field point. So saying its "unrecoverable" is fooling one's self. It will still leave at least as good a bloodtrail as a broudhead. That animal is not unrecoverable, that animal can be found, and thats the reason I have doubt. But they never do, and so its a coppout tosay the bullet failed. You have no idea if that bullet failed, or if the billion to one odds struck. I have the perfect example. A few years ago I and two others, Amber was spotting, and Chris was videoing, were LR hunting and I shot a small 4 point buck at 525yds with a 300winmag and 190gr SMK's. Point of impact was center up the body and 4in behind the shoulder on left side. Exit was THROUGH the shoulder blade on right side. He dropped right there. Were all congratulating each other, when that buck decided he didnt want to die. He struggled back to his feet, turned around and walked back the way he came. We were dumbfounded, as we could now see where the bullet exited, bigger than a softball. Amber could see the shoulder blade, (plain as day through the spotting scope), through the exit hole, and blood dripping out. On the video you can see it perfectly, and also so hear our not so G-rated responses. I had no idea where to shoot this deer, there wasnt a whole lot left of his chest, and I didnt think it would do any good seeing as the last one didnt, so I took a head shot, he was behind a tree about ten yards from the woodline, when I shot, and hit the only branch between me and him. It was about an inch thick and it deflected the bullet right over his head. Before I could get another shot he was out of sight. We searched hard that night but could not find him, found a piece of scapula but not him. The next mourning we went back out and looked for about three hours, finding very little blood and bone fragments before we findly found that deer about six-houndred yards from where he was shot. If that deer hadnt turned around where we could see the hole, and if we had not found that deer, I would to this day said that bullet failed, probably stopped using MK's, as that was right when I started hunting with them. But that bullet didnt fail, it penetrated the top of the left lung, sevierly damaged the liver, and destroyed the right lung, before going through the right shoulder blade, leaving a five inch exit hole. That deer was one in a million, he refused to die. But I guess I'm a lucky baterd bause its happend twice. The next year at 270yds, with the same gun ammo, I shot a doe, qourtering away, she dropped, but after a few moments she got back up and ran off into the woods. We went to the edge of the woods and could hear her floping around as she ran off, it being nearly dark and cold we decided to come back the next mourning, instead of running her off, since we werent sure where I hit. The next mourning I found the blood trail immeaditly followed it for about 200 yards, where it was becoming very thin, when I jumped up a doe staight in front of me about 80yds, now truthfully I didnt know for sure it she was my deer as she showed no obvious signs of harm, but I had a pretty good idea that she was, as it was directly in line with the trail, and I had plenty of tags anyway. I shot her and she dropped, this is what I found when I got to her, <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/Scan0009_0009.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /> </p><p>The one in her chest is about five to five in a half inches, and is my second shot. The first one went high, because of "crappy operator" performence. <u>I</u> [censored] up. The one in her neck is bigger then a baseball, and clipped her spine and damaged her windpipe. It only travled through about 4 inches of tissue befor exiting. You can see the tissue is dark, and scabbed over. I have no doubt in my mind this deer would have lived. She was not harmed in the least, even though that bullet hit her spine( but it did not cut the spinal cord), damaged her windpipe and left a 3.5 inch exit hole. My point to all this is if that would have been an average hunter, and didnt find those two deer(esp. the first) they would have blamed the bullet, even more so since they read on a forum that Mk's are unreliable, close up, blow up, or just plain have a tendency not to work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charles A, post: 82908, member: 231"] First the personal stuff. Derek, I think your taking what I'm saying the wrong way. I never said <u>YOUR</u> <u>expierences</u> , I said your "accounts". I have no doubt you saw what you saw. I have doubts [i]they[/i] saw what they think they saw. I never called you a liar, I'm very sorry I came off that way. You have no way of knowing I do what I say I do, unless you come and see it, which your welcome too, but if you do a search of my name I think you'll find quite a few instances where I said, I suck, I F-ed up. I sucked here, because you have taken what I said personal, and that was, and is, not my intention. I really hope you dont leave the thread as I am learning from it, and you, and would like to keep discusing it. In any case have on you antelope hunt, I hope you get a big one. With no bullet failures [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Now the debate. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] You say you've had good expierences with BTips. You've shot quite a few deer with them, and have a prtty good understanding of what to expect. Now say on some forum someone says(not you, dont take it that way) "I heard from this guy at work theve shot 13 deer right behind the shoulder, absulutly perfect shots, with 180grBT and that bullet penciled right through on every one of them". Would you believe him? Would it be different if he said they blewup on the skin and didnt even make it to the ribs? Bullets fail, all bullets. I never said they [i]never[/i] fail, I said they didnt. Theres a difference. It would be the same as if I told you you arent going to win the lottery. Does that mean its impossible? No of course not. It means a billion to one odds, [i]it doesnt happen.[/i] That has been my point this whole time. If that deer you were watching through the glass had been shot by a partition, would your first thought have been, bullet failure? Would you then tell people that partitions are prone to fail on deer size game? Or would you say wow thats wierd, million to one. Its the problem I have, the MK is a proven bullet, Sierra may not say it publicly, but you can ask anyone of there techs, especially Rich Macholz, and they'll tell you they are a great deer bullet. Just as dakor has found out. As far as not being able to recover deer where the bullet did not expand, thats a two part answer. First, MK's tip closing up, sure its possible. But then when it hits a denser median, ie.- 90% water(flesh), due to the base of the bullet being heavier, and wanting to travel first, it will tumble, and at all but the lowest velocities will fragment creating massive damage, that is when we get baskettball size wounds. That is why I asked if the animal was recovered, it goes into the second part: Even if the bullet didnt expand, and defied science, and didnt tumble, it still creates hydrostatic shock, tearing tissue(above about 2,000fps), and leaving a hole. In any case it still creates more damage then a broadhead, and not even comparable to a field point. So saying its "unrecoverable" is fooling one's self. It will still leave at least as good a bloodtrail as a broudhead. That animal is not unrecoverable, that animal can be found, and thats the reason I have doubt. But they never do, and so its a coppout tosay the bullet failed. You have no idea if that bullet failed, or if the billion to one odds struck. I have the perfect example. A few years ago I and two others, Amber was spotting, and Chris was videoing, were LR hunting and I shot a small 4 point buck at 525yds with a 300winmag and 190gr SMK's. Point of impact was center up the body and 4in behind the shoulder on left side. Exit was THROUGH the shoulder blade on right side. He dropped right there. Were all congratulating each other, when that buck decided he didnt want to die. He struggled back to his feet, turned around and walked back the way he came. We were dumbfounded, as we could now see where the bullet exited, bigger than a softball. Amber could see the shoulder blade, (plain as day through the spotting scope), through the exit hole, and blood dripping out. On the video you can see it perfectly, and also so hear our not so G-rated responses. I had no idea where to shoot this deer, there wasnt a whole lot left of his chest, and I didnt think it would do any good seeing as the last one didnt, so I took a head shot, he was behind a tree about ten yards from the woodline, when I shot, and hit the only branch between me and him. It was about an inch thick and it deflected the bullet right over his head. Before I could get another shot he was out of sight. We searched hard that night but could not find him, found a piece of scapula but not him. The next mourning we went back out and looked for about three hours, finding very little blood and bone fragments before we findly found that deer about six-houndred yards from where he was shot. If that deer hadnt turned around where we could see the hole, and if we had not found that deer, I would to this day said that bullet failed, probably stopped using MK's, as that was right when I started hunting with them. But that bullet didnt fail, it penetrated the top of the left lung, sevierly damaged the liver, and destroyed the right lung, before going through the right shoulder blade, leaving a five inch exit hole. That deer was one in a million, he refused to die. But I guess I'm a lucky baterd bause its happend twice. The next year at 270yds, with the same gun ammo, I shot a doe, qourtering away, she dropped, but after a few moments she got back up and ran off into the woods. We went to the edge of the woods and could hear her floping around as she ran off, it being nearly dark and cold we decided to come back the next mourning, instead of running her off, since we werent sure where I hit. The next mourning I found the blood trail immeaditly followed it for about 200 yards, where it was becoming very thin, when I jumped up a doe staight in front of me about 80yds, now truthfully I didnt know for sure it she was my deer as she showed no obvious signs of harm, but I had a pretty good idea that she was, as it was directly in line with the trail, and I had plenty of tags anyway. I shot her and she dropped, this is what I found when I got to her, [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/CharlesArbuckle/Scan0009_0009.jpg[/img] The one in her chest is about five to five in a half inches, and is my second shot. The first one went high, because of "crappy operator" performence. <u>I</u> [censored] up. The one in her neck is bigger then a baseball, and clipped her spine and damaged her windpipe. It only travled through about 4 inches of tissue befor exiting. You can see the tissue is dark, and scabbed over. I have no doubt in my mind this deer would have lived. She was not harmed in the least, even though that bullet hit her spine( but it did not cut the spinal cord), damaged her windpipe and left a 3.5 inch exit hole. My point to all this is if that would have been an average hunter, and didnt find those two deer(esp. the first) they would have blamed the bullet, even more so since they read on a forum that Mk's are unreliable, close up, blow up, or just plain have a tendency not to work. [/QUOTE]
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