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Neck sizing belted magnums
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<blockquote data-quote="CatShooter" data-source="post: 1319001" data-attributes="member: 7"><p>BigEdP51...</p><p></p><p><strong>You say:</strong></p><p></p><p><em>"The vast majority of modern bolt actions have a recessed bolt face and the cartridge does "NOT" lay in the bottom of the chamber."</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><img src="http://www.gunsandgunsmiths.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_8545.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p><img src="http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2011/06/71.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p><strong>But it should be obvious that the modern bolt action rifle, because of it's spring loaded ejector, pushes the loaded round to the opposite side of the chamber.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>This is why the case swelling in front of the web is not uniform around the case, but to one side - it is because the case was not centered. It is not a critical matter, because once the case if fired, the expanded body redefines the axial center, and you can go from there, unless you keep squishing the body back down, and starting all over.</strong></p><p></p><p>--------------------------------</p><p></p><p><em>"Below is from the "Rifleman's Journal" website written by German A. Salazar in response to a question about partial neck sizing using a full length die."</em></p><p></p><p><em></em></p><p><em> Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing</em></p><p><em>by German A. Salazar</em></p><p><em><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><u><a href="http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html" target="_blank">http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html</a></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></u></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em><span style="color: #000080"><em>"<strong>[...]</strong></em><strong><em> Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."</em></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong> </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong></strong><span style="color: Black">I belong to the "rat turd in the violin case" club.</span><strong> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong>The problem with this comment is... because of brass spring back, there will ALWAYS be ~0.001 clearance between the case body and the chamber with neck sizing - you don't need a FL die for that... and with 99% of "over the counter" FL dies, they will always create more "slop" (not clearance).</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong>I belong to the "Snug as a Bug in a Rug" club.</strong> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big Grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><strong></strong><span style="color: black"><strong>There are several problems with Kevin Thomas' comments.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>1 - <em>"As I said, if done properly, F/L sizing gives you every bit as long of case life as N/S can,, but without all the additional headaches that go hand in hand with neck sizing.</em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>The problem with that comment is this - I reloaded my first cartridge in 1953 (I AM older than dirt<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />). I have been the chief manager of an ammunition company (twice - I left, they shut down, I came back. I left again, and they shut down for good). I owned my own ammunition company for 4 years. I am a NRA certified handloading instructor, and I have been teaching this stuff for a loooooong time. What I have found is this.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>If you take 500 everyday handloaders (throw in 100 "accuracy" handloaders too, if you like), you will find maybe 10 to 20 that can properly set up an over the counter FL sizing die. The "PB Bench" kids pay $175 for a "custom" FL die, which is made so it can't be mis-adjusted, so they don't have to know doodley squat.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>Maybe one in 500 reloaders has equipment to measure the headspace of cases and chambers, or shoulder growth when setting up a OTC FL die.... and less than one in 100, knows how to detect case stretching.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>Head separation is a common aliment, but neck sizing causes none of this. In 1975, I bought a Remington 40-XB rifle in 22-250, a "deeeeelux set of RCBS dies, and 400 Winchester cases.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>I burned out the barrel in a 3 week trip to South Dakota, over PD towns... we shot during the day, and we loaded at night. I neck sized. The cases fit snug (with some crush).</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>I got it rebarreled. The cases fit real tight on the first firing, but fireformed formed to the chamber, and cycled fine after the first firing... and I wore out that barrel the following year.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>On the third barrel, the cases were too tight, so I used the FL die for the first time, and carefully adjusted the die so the cases would just get into the chamber with some effort.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>I went through two more barrels, and after the 5th barrel, I was plain tired of the 22-250 (EVERYBODY had one). I was shooting my .220 Swift more and lovin' it. So I and rebarreled up to .244 Rem in 2009-ish.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>I packed up the dies (by now, they were all Redding Comp's), and decided to toss the brass, cuz I was never going to own another 22-250 (HA!!)</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>I sliced two of the cases and there was no sign of incipient head separation. The cases had ~45 firing on each one.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>Now that Forster has the "Bump" die, there is no need for a full die, unless you are bringing over fired cases from another chamber.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>(A side note - I now own TWO 22-250s, and shoot Lapua cases).</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>2 - Jim Hull's comment about rat poopie and violin cases is real cutsie pie, but it is meaningless.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>The world record benchrest shooter, Jack Neary (BR Hall of Fame), who currently holds almost every world record, does the following.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>First, he oils the case body on the first firing, so the case body does NOT grip the chamber walls. On firing, the whole case slides back to the bolt face and "fireforms" to the chamber.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>Once formed, he adjusts the sizing die, so the case is slightly longer than the chamber - id est, with the firing pin removed, the bold handle will drop down only half way on a "sized" case, and must be pushed down the rest of the way.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>Jack's cases fit the chamber with NO space.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong>This is loading with "Crush", and it prevents (or minimizes) the case from growing when fired... because ANY space in the chamber when the cartridges is fired dry, will cause the case to stretch. So if you are "bumping 2 thou" when sizing, then you are stretching 2 thou every time you fire the case.</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000080"><span style="color: black"><strong></strong></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CatShooter, post: 1319001, member: 7"] BigEdP51... [B]You say:[/B] [I]"The vast majority of modern bolt actions have a recessed bolt face and the cartridge does "NOT" lay in the bottom of the chamber." [/I] [IMG]http://www.gunsandgunsmiths.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IMG_8545.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2011/06/71.jpg[/IMG] [B]But it should be obvious that the modern bolt action rifle, because of it's spring loaded ejector, pushes the loaded round to the opposite side of the chamber. This is why the case swelling in front of the web is not uniform around the case, but to one side - it is because the case was not centered. It is not a critical matter, because once the case if fired, the expanded body redefines the axial center, and you can go from there, unless you keep squishing the body back down, and starting all over.[/B] -------------------------------- [I]"Below is from the "Rifleman's Journal" website written by German A. Salazar in response to a question about partial neck sizing using a full length die."[/I] [I] Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing by German A. Salazar [U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][U][URL]http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html[/URL][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U][/U] [/I][COLOR=#000080][I]"[B][...][/B][/I][B][I] Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."[/I] [/B][COLOR=Black]I belong to the "rat turd in the violin case" club.[/COLOR][B] :D The problem with this comment is... because of brass spring back, there will ALWAYS be ~0.001 clearance between the case body and the chamber with neck sizing - you don't need a FL die for that... and with 99% of "over the counter" FL dies, they will always create more "slop" (not clearance). [/B] [B]I belong to the "Snug as a Bug in a Rug" club.[/B] :D [B] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Y3IiYL5.jpg[/IMG] [/B][COLOR=black][B]There are several problems with Kevin Thomas' comments. 1 - [I]"As I said, if done properly, F/L sizing gives you every bit as long of case life as N/S can,, but without all the additional headaches that go hand in hand with neck sizing.[/I] The problem with that comment is this - I reloaded my first cartridge in 1953 (I AM older than dirt:)). I have been the chief manager of an ammunition company (twice - I left, they shut down, I came back. I left again, and they shut down for good). I owned my own ammunition company for 4 years. I am a NRA certified handloading instructor, and I have been teaching this stuff for a loooooong time. What I have found is this. If you take 500 everyday handloaders (throw in 100 "accuracy" handloaders too, if you like), you will find maybe 10 to 20 that can properly set up an over the counter FL sizing die. The "PB Bench" kids pay $175 for a "custom" FL die, which is made so it can't be mis-adjusted, so they don't have to know doodley squat. Maybe one in 500 reloaders has equipment to measure the headspace of cases and chambers, or shoulder growth when setting up a OTC FL die.... and less than one in 100, knows how to detect case stretching. Head separation is a common aliment, but neck sizing causes none of this. In 1975, I bought a Remington 40-XB rifle in 22-250, a "deeeeelux set of RCBS dies, and 400 Winchester cases. I burned out the barrel in a 3 week trip to South Dakota, over PD towns... we shot during the day, and we loaded at night. I neck sized. The cases fit snug (with some crush). I got it rebarreled. The cases fit real tight on the first firing, but fireformed formed to the chamber, and cycled fine after the first firing... and I wore out that barrel the following year. On the third barrel, the cases were too tight, so I used the FL die for the first time, and carefully adjusted the die so the cases would just get into the chamber with some effort. I went through two more barrels, and after the 5th barrel, I was plain tired of the 22-250 (EVERYBODY had one). I was shooting my .220 Swift more and lovin' it. So I and rebarreled up to .244 Rem in 2009-ish. I packed up the dies (by now, they were all Redding Comp's), and decided to toss the brass, cuz I was never going to own another 22-250 (HA!!) I sliced two of the cases and there was no sign of incipient head separation. The cases had ~45 firing on each one. Now that Forster has the "Bump" die, there is no need for a full die, unless you are bringing over fired cases from another chamber. (A side note - I now own TWO 22-250s, and shoot Lapua cases). 2 - Jim Hull's comment about rat poopie and violin cases is real cutsie pie, but it is meaningless. The world record benchrest shooter, Jack Neary (BR Hall of Fame), who currently holds almost every world record, does the following. First, he oils the case body on the first firing, so the case body does NOT grip the chamber walls. On firing, the whole case slides back to the bolt face and "fireforms" to the chamber. Once formed, he adjusts the sizing die, so the case is slightly longer than the chamber - id est, with the firing pin removed, the bold handle will drop down only half way on a "sized" case, and must be pushed down the rest of the way. Jack's cases fit the chamber with NO space. This is loading with "Crush", and it prevents (or minimizes) the case from growing when fired... because ANY space in the chamber when the cartridges is fired dry, will cause the case to stretch. So if you are "bumping 2 thou" when sizing, then you are stretching 2 thou every time you fire the case. [/B][/COLOR][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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