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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
ladder test? does it work
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<blockquote data-quote="CatShooter" data-source="post: 146433" data-attributes="member: 7"><p>Don...</p><p></p><p>You missed something.</p><p></p><p>I didn't say it wasn't harmonics - never said that!!</p><p></p><p>But the assumption in Ladder theory is that if a barrel didn't vibrate, all bullets would fall in a teeny group, so if you can isolate the "node" then you too can have teeny groups. But it IS possible to completely eliminate vibration, and it does NOT guarantee teeny groups with average to mediocre barrels.</p><p></p><p>And the same problem happens at the other extreme. If you have a bench rest grade barrel, and you run ladders, you get a target with a string of nearly evenly spaced holes from bottom to top, with no indication AT ALL, which load does what... and I had that happen this past November with a .264WM... running two shot test groups (would fit the ladder definition), each pair was touching, and just a bit higher than the last... so the only information I got was what the max load was, and I have to start all over again.</p><p></p><p>What I was pointing out is... that statistically, one shot at each load is not enough information to draw a conclusion, because each load has such a large spread. With good barrels, even two shots are not enough data to draw a conclusion from.</p><p></p><p>In any science, an experiment MUST have a large enough sample of EACH item to assure that the data is representative of that item.</p><p></p><p>So one shot of a load that can shoot a 1-1/4" group is meaningless, because if you repeat five ladders of the same group of loads, each of the five ladder targets will give you a different "best" load.</p><p></p><p>Any math major can give you the math laws that define this, so this is NOT my theory or opinion... a mathematician would wet his pants laughing at the "Ladder theory". The sample pool is just not large enough to give you accurate information to draw from.</p><p></p><p>Put another way... if I shot ten targets with two 30 calibre rifles... so it could be 3 from one, and 7 from the other... or 5 from one and 5 from the other... you could NOT tell me which were "the best" loads for them... and if you can't do that, then your data pool is way too small.</p><p></p><p>If the ladder test had meaning, which load was the best, AND you would be able to say which 5 targets were from the same rifle, because the data would replicate on each target... which it does NOT.</p><p></p><p>And all that assumes an accurate barrel... factory barrels can be so poor that they just can't shoot small or predictable groups, so with ladder theory, you can chase your tail for weeks and never find anything.</p><p></p><p>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CatShooter, post: 146433, member: 7"] Don... You missed something. I didn't say it wasn't harmonics - never said that!! But the assumption in Ladder theory is that if a barrel didn't vibrate, all bullets would fall in a teeny group, so if you can isolate the "node" then you too can have teeny groups. But it IS possible to completely eliminate vibration, and it does NOT guarantee teeny groups with average to mediocre barrels. And the same problem happens at the other extreme. If you have a bench rest grade barrel, and you run ladders, you get a target with a string of nearly evenly spaced holes from bottom to top, with no indication AT ALL, which load does what... and I had that happen this past November with a .264WM... running two shot test groups (would fit the ladder definition), each pair was touching, and just a bit higher than the last... so the only information I got was what the max load was, and I have to start all over again. What I was pointing out is... that statistically, one shot at each load is not enough information to draw a conclusion, because each load has such a large spread. With good barrels, even two shots are not enough data to draw a conclusion from. In any science, an experiment MUST have a large enough sample of EACH item to assure that the data is representative of that item. So one shot of a load that can shoot a 1-1/4" group is meaningless, because if you repeat five ladders of the same group of loads, each of the five ladder targets will give you a different "best" load. Any math major can give you the math laws that define this, so this is NOT my theory or opinion... a mathematician would wet his pants laughing at the "Ladder theory". The sample pool is just not large enough to give you accurate information to draw from. Put another way... if I shot ten targets with two 30 calibre rifles... so it could be 3 from one, and 7 from the other... or 5 from one and 5 from the other... you could NOT tell me which were "the best" loads for them... and if you can't do that, then your data pool is way too small. If the ladder test had meaning, which load was the best, AND you would be able to say which 5 targets were from the same rifle, because the data would replicate on each target... which it does NOT. And all that assumes an accurate barrel... factory barrels can be so poor that they just can't shoot small or predictable groups, so with ladder theory, you can chase your tail for weeks and never find anything. . [/QUOTE]
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