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Hammers in 308
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<blockquote data-quote="SuperBruce" data-source="post: 2354577" data-attributes="member: 120544"><p>[USER=41385]@ButterBean[/USER], I'm also curious what you do after your initial ladder for finding pressure. What is the workflow after that?</p><p></p><p>My whole process goes like this, and it's basically the same for all bullets:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Get my cases prepped and get a target COL identified. As ButterBean noted, monolithic bullets, and certainly hammers, are different in this regard so things like neck tension and seating depth will not be the same as lead core bullets. For example, I'm not aware of a monolithic bullet that prefers to be seated to the lands, or even close for that matter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Identify a powder and charge range I'm interested in based on user data from this or the hammer time forum and from say Barnes or Nosler for comparable bullets, and lay out a ladder. For absolute hammers this is way different and I think Steve has posted about his general approach to it before.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I tend to do a logarithmic system: my starting charge will be way low but I use big jumps of about 1gr to just make sure using 1 round each (usually 1 or 2 jumps) and then shorten the interval as I get close to my ladders max.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For 308 and cartridges of comparable case volume, my range of interest is usually 2 to 2.5 grains wide and I do 2 round jumps in increments of 0.5 for a round or two and 0.3 until the top. Magnums would justify larger jumps, 223 maybe smaller jumps.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">From a stable position, shoot the rounds over a chrono at a redfield target.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Pay attention to the velocity, the velocity consistency if more than one round (ES), group tightness, and group <em>POI </em>on the target when aiming at the center of each of those corner diamonds (holding center of target consistently is important, hitting the center is meaningless at this stage).<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Two rounds does not a trend guarantee but it does help eliminate charges: if a group sucks with 2 rounds it will likely only get worse with more shots.</li> </ul></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Look at my ladder data for the following:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I want a range of at least a half grain where each group in that range had good ES<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I want to reach out to 600 yards so an ES of 50fps results in about a 5" vertical shift. You can model this with a BC calculator for the shots you take to see what ES you should be willing to accept.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I want the POI on the redfield target to not be erratic in that range, basically a POI shift of more than 3/4 of an inch among all charges in the range isn't good enough for me. I don't want it jumping wildly around the target with small changes in charge because if the weather changes and my velocity changes slightly that means your POI might change more than you'd like.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Tight (enough) groups.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">With hammers, which are extremely jump-insensitive, this will most often fall in line with the two points above: if the ES is low and the POI change between groups is low the groups will almost always be a good 2 round group.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For jump sensitive bullets like Berger VLD's you may need to play with seating depths to tighten up the group but the ES shouldn't change a ton with changing seating depths.</li> </ul></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If I've found a range or two in step 4 that is looking promising, I load 5 rounds and fire them over the chrono. Make sure the groups hold and the ES stays in an acceptable range. They usually both grow in this step, but if it's a good load it wont grow much and that's the common case.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If 5 looks good, load up a few more and take them out to distance.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">make sure the BC data is correct and if not, find out what it really is. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Get my zero set correct so as to line up the notches in my BDC reticle for 400, 500, and 600 yard impacts.</li> </ul></li> </ol><p><span style="font-size: 22px">Pros</span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">With a jump-forgiving bullet like hammers I can usually find a 600+ yard capable load in two range trips and roughly 20ish rounds.</li> </ul><p><span style="font-size: 22px">Cons</span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If you're not going to be shooting past 300 or 400 yards, which a lot of (most?) people limit themselves to either because of ethical reasons or they just doing get opportunities further out due to terrain, some of this is not necessary. A ES of even 100 fps will make little difference within 300 yards.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If that's the case for you, you can skip step 6 and just zero for a MPBR. A 1 round ladder for step 2 becomes much more viable: just pick a range where your POI doesn't change much and chances are you're set.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Even for a 600+ yard load, I could perhaps save a couple bullets by only doing 1 shot groups for the whole initial ladder and trying to infer group size by POI, but the extra couple rounds are worth it <em>to me</em> in order to perhaps eliminate a trip to the range and needing to send more bullets. Basically it's insurance.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SuperBruce, post: 2354577, member: 120544"] [USER=41385]@ButterBean[/USER], I'm also curious what you do after your initial ladder for finding pressure. What is the workflow after that? My whole process goes like this, and it's basically the same for all bullets: [LIST=1] [*]Get my cases prepped and get a target COL identified. As ButterBean noted, monolithic bullets, and certainly hammers, are different in this regard so things like neck tension and seating depth will not be the same as lead core bullets. For example, I'm not aware of a monolithic bullet that prefers to be seated to the lands, or even close for that matter. [*]Identify a powder and charge range I'm interested in based on user data from this or the hammer time forum and from say Barnes or Nosler for comparable bullets, and lay out a ladder. For absolute hammers this is way different and I think Steve has posted about his general approach to it before. [LIST] [*]I tend to do a logarithmic system: my starting charge will be way low but I use big jumps of about 1gr to just make sure using 1 round each (usually 1 or 2 jumps) and then shorten the interval as I get close to my ladders max. [*]For 308 and cartridges of comparable case volume, my range of interest is usually 2 to 2.5 grains wide and I do 2 round jumps in increments of 0.5 for a round or two and 0.3 until the top. Magnums would justify larger jumps, 223 maybe smaller jumps. [/LIST] [*]From a stable position, shoot the rounds over a chrono at a redfield target. [LIST=1] [*]Pay attention to the velocity, the velocity consistency if more than one round (ES), group tightness, and group [I]POI [/I]on the target when aiming at the center of each of those corner diamonds (holding center of target consistently is important, hitting the center is meaningless at this stage). [LIST] [*]Two rounds does not a trend guarantee but it does help eliminate charges: if a group sucks with 2 rounds it will likely only get worse with more shots. [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]Look at my ladder data for the following: [LIST=1] [*]I want a range of at least a half grain where each group in that range had good ES [LIST] [*]I want to reach out to 600 yards so an ES of 50fps results in about a 5" vertical shift. You can model this with a BC calculator for the shots you take to see what ES you should be willing to accept. [/LIST] [*]I want the POI on the redfield target to not be erratic in that range, basically a POI shift of more than 3/4 of an inch among all charges in the range isn't good enough for me. I don't want it jumping wildly around the target with small changes in charge because if the weather changes and my velocity changes slightly that means your POI might change more than you'd like. [*]Tight (enough) groups. [LIST] [*]With hammers, which are extremely jump-insensitive, this will most often fall in line with the two points above: if the ES is low and the POI change between groups is low the groups will almost always be a good 2 round group. [*]For jump sensitive bullets like Berger VLD's you may need to play with seating depths to tighten up the group but the ES shouldn't change a ton with changing seating depths. [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]If I've found a range or two in step 4 that is looking promising, I load 5 rounds and fire them over the chrono. Make sure the groups hold and the ES stays in an acceptable range. They usually both grow in this step, but if it's a good load it wont grow much and that's the common case. [*]If 5 looks good, load up a few more and take them out to distance. [LIST] [*]make sure the BC data is correct and if not, find out what it really is. [*]Get my zero set correct so as to line up the notches in my BDC reticle for 400, 500, and 600 yard impacts. [/LIST] [/LIST] [SIZE=6]Pros[/SIZE] [LIST] [*]With a jump-forgiving bullet like hammers I can usually find a 600+ yard capable load in two range trips and roughly 20ish rounds. [/LIST] [SIZE=6]Cons[/SIZE] [LIST] [*]If you're not going to be shooting past 300 or 400 yards, which a lot of (most?) people limit themselves to either because of ethical reasons or they just doing get opportunities further out due to terrain, some of this is not necessary. A ES of even 100 fps will make little difference within 300 yards. [LIST] [*]If that's the case for you, you can skip step 6 and just zero for a MPBR. A 1 round ladder for step 2 becomes much more viable: just pick a range where your POI doesn't change much and chances are you're set. [/LIST] [*]Even for a 600+ yard load, I could perhaps save a couple bullets by only doing 1 shot groups for the whole initial ladder and trying to infer group size by POI, but the extra couple rounds are worth it [I]to me[/I] in order to perhaps eliminate a trip to the range and needing to send more bullets. Basically it's insurance. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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