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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
Expanding vs Turning Mandrels
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<blockquote data-quote="Mikecr" data-source="post: 2426785" data-attributes="member: 1521"><p>I appears that obsessive annealing is putting folks in a tail chasing loop.</p><p>You over anneal to soft brass, and then size more to compensate, which leads back to a need for annealing..</p><p>It's similar to an obsessive sizing loop, where you size more only to end up needing to size more.</p><p></p><p>Pretend for a moment that there is no such thing as annealing.</p><p>You want good consistent tension, and you want your brass to last.</p><p>Here, your plan would center on minimal sizing. That's it, no loop, the brass lasts as many sizing cycles as clearances allow -before it hardens to the point of substantial difference. If your clearances were minimum, your pockets may open before ever reaching a neck hardness issue.</p><p></p><p>I do this with most guns, and this is how it goes for me;</p><p>By ~20 reloads, I've set aside 1or2 cases departing in measured seating forces. By ~30-40 reload cycles I may have enough cases set aside that I decide it's time to reset the batch. I'll dip anneal at that point, NOT to full anneal, but to stress relieve(process anneal) back to a standard that does not disrupt my load. Good to go</p><p>The only end to brass I've had with this, so far, has been because of opening pockets, and only with Norma brass (which I no longer use).</p><p></p><p>I do turn necks for most chambers, and all that I have control over. The only time I don't turn is when it would lead to excess clearances.</p><p>I've been mandrel pre-seating necks for ~30yrs now. I do this to reduce seated runout, and to measure and match pre-seating forces, as I'm correlating indirectly to tension. I can do this because I've installed a force sensor in my mandrel die.</p><p>With turned necks and my minimal sizing plan, I don't actually need a mandrel. But I still use it for measurement.</p><p></p><p>IMO, the ideal mandrel would be at cal diameter. Necks would spring back from this as they would after bullets were seated and pulled.</p><p>The force of that spring back times the area applied to seated bullet bearing, is your tension (in PSI).</p><p>If your sizing length is no more than seated bearing(which is proper), then this spring back force from cal is really what you have, regardless of excess downsizing. A bullet will expand a neck just the same as a mandrel at cal.</p><p></p><p>To picture it in distance(interference fit), necks spring back 1/2 to 1thou depending on cal diameter. The force within that spring back is what's gripping your bullets. If you downsize to leave 5thou interference for ~half neck length, it's just 4thou excess. The bullet will upsize that to cal, with 1/2 to 1 thou spring back force. All you've really done is work harden your necks.</p><p>Now if you need more force, work hardened necks can provide it for sure. That's on you to manage with a sizing plan or annealing.</p><p>I'm just suggesting that it's easy to manage with a sizing plan. Just avoid excesses, and adjust tension with LENGTH of minimal sizing.</p><p>That's X-pounds (of normal spring back force) times Y-inches applied (to bullet bearing area gripped).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mikecr, post: 2426785, member: 1521"] I appears that obsessive annealing is putting folks in a tail chasing loop. You over anneal to soft brass, and then size more to compensate, which leads back to a need for annealing.. It's similar to an obsessive sizing loop, where you size more only to end up needing to size more. Pretend for a moment that there is no such thing as annealing. You want good consistent tension, and you want your brass to last. Here, your plan would center on minimal sizing. That's it, no loop, the brass lasts as many sizing cycles as clearances allow -before it hardens to the point of substantial difference. If your clearances were minimum, your pockets may open before ever reaching a neck hardness issue. I do this with most guns, and this is how it goes for me; By ~20 reloads, I've set aside 1or2 cases departing in measured seating forces. By ~30-40 reload cycles I may have enough cases set aside that I decide it's time to reset the batch. I'll dip anneal at that point, NOT to full anneal, but to stress relieve(process anneal) back to a standard that does not disrupt my load. Good to go The only end to brass I've had with this, so far, has been because of opening pockets, and only with Norma brass (which I no longer use). I do turn necks for most chambers, and all that I have control over. The only time I don't turn is when it would lead to excess clearances. I've been mandrel pre-seating necks for ~30yrs now. I do this to reduce seated runout, and to measure and match pre-seating forces, as I'm correlating indirectly to tension. I can do this because I've installed a force sensor in my mandrel die. With turned necks and my minimal sizing plan, I don't actually need a mandrel. But I still use it for measurement. IMO, the ideal mandrel would be at cal diameter. Necks would spring back from this as they would after bullets were seated and pulled. The force of that spring back times the area applied to seated bullet bearing, is your tension (in PSI). If your sizing length is no more than seated bearing(which is proper), then this spring back force from cal is really what you have, regardless of excess downsizing. A bullet will expand a neck just the same as a mandrel at cal. To picture it in distance(interference fit), necks spring back 1/2 to 1thou depending on cal diameter. The force within that spring back is what's gripping your bullets. If you downsize to leave 5thou interference for ~half neck length, it's just 4thou excess. The bullet will upsize that to cal, with 1/2 to 1 thou spring back force. All you've really done is work harden your necks. Now if you need more force, work hardened necks can provide it for sure. That's on you to manage with a sizing plan or annealing. I'm just suggesting that it's easy to manage with a sizing plan. Just avoid excesses, and adjust tension with LENGTH of minimal sizing. That's X-pounds (of normal spring back force) times Y-inches applied (to bullet bearing area gripped). [/QUOTE]
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Expanding vs Turning Mandrels
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