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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Barnes Response to Berger
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<blockquote data-quote="Eric Stecker" data-source="post: 312778" data-attributes="member: 8908"><p>Idig,</p><p> </p><p>I am responding to your post not because I wish to rebut you but rather because there are ideas related to your post that need to be communicated to others who read these forums but do not post.</p><p> </p><p>These forums serve as the fire by which all (product) metal is tested. Manufacturers throughout the entire firearms industry are primarily concerned about one thing - keeping their business alive. Each manufacturer produces a product that <strong><em>IS </em></strong>good, mediocre or bad. Unfortunately, their promotional materials will ALWAYS paint them as being good regardless of their true quality (or lack of).</p><p> </p><p>The problem with this is, just like every other product the actual results produced by the product is fixed regardless of the way a particular manufacturer promotes the product. These forums serve as a <em>Consumer Reports</em> of sorts by allowing everyone and anyone the ability to share their experiences with firearms industry products. </p><p> </p><p>If you find that on a particular forum certain products are acclaimed or ridiculed you should consider why. No one should make a judgment from any one posting but rather take into account all that is posted about a given product. Each of us who read these posts are capable of sorting out for ourselves what is important to us and what is not.</p><p> </p><p>I mention all of this because I believe there is a greater issue with which we as shooting sports supporters should be concerned. The firearms industry and shooting sports is among a list of a few groups which is under attack by those who wish to see the whole of the shooting sports go away forever. </p><p> </p><p>The reason why I am so intensely frustrated by misinformation spread by those within the industry is because I strongly believe that those who do such things are focused on their own self interests and not those of the shooting sports as a whole. This behavior hurts the shooting sports by producing bad experiences. </p><p> </p><p>What I mean is no marketing hype or product positioning will overcome what will actually happen when you use a particular product. If you are lead to believe that a particular product will perform in a certain way and it doesn't, you will have a bad <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">experience</span></span>. Rack up enough of these bad <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">experiences</span></span> and you are less likely to continue to be active in the shooting sports. </p><p> </p><p>The weakening of the shooting sports by misinformation which produces bad experiences is something that I will oppose at every opportunity.</p><p> </p><p>Some of you might be scratching your head and saying "what the heck is Eric talking about?" Let me give you an example. Berger makes many bullets used for shooting varmints. When I am asked "how explosive are they on varmints?" my response every time is "not as explosive as Nosler ballistic tips." </p><p> </p><p>This is the truth. I could easily say "they are very explosive" which neither tells the shooter anything specific nor helps them improve their shooting experience. The fact is those who use Bergers on varmint do so because they are very precise and <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">capable</span></span> of excellent accuracy. The amount of "explosiveness" is good (and capable of killing any varmint you hit) but it is not as explosive as Nosler's ballistic tips or frankly any tipped bullets. </p><p> </p><p>When those who ask me "how explosive are they on varmints?" are given this truthful answer they are then empowered to decide whether they are more interested in explosive expansion or enhanced accuracy. <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I have been telling varmint hunters this truth for years and we sell a large amount of varmint bullets to those who are very happy to shoot them</span></span>.</p><p> </p><p>If I were Barnes, I would handle this situation very differently. What I would do is say that we (in this paragraph I am pretending to be Barnes) produce a bullet that will penetrate deeply and retain a majority of its weight. Our bullets are more successful at achieving this result than any others on the market (which is true). The accuracy level of our bullets is capable of meeting the needs of any game hunter up to and including shots at medium range. Also, the deep penetrating and high weight retaining characteristics of our bullets makes them ideal for hunting the world's largest and most dangerous game.</p><p> </p><p>The fact is there are hunters who are very satisfied with this level of performance. By taking this position publicly Barnes is speaking truthfully and is still satisfying the needs of those who loyally use their product. When the bullets perform as they are accurately described you get a hunter who has a good experience because he got results he expected. If anyone thinks that communicating this position publicly will hurt Barnes position in their portion of the market then they have not been reading the posts of those such as Long Time Long Ranger who have no intension of shooting a different bullet.</p><p> </p><p>If we go back to the original article that prompted my response article which lead to this latest rebuttal article by Thad we will see that Barnes was trying to position themselves as something that they are not. I believe strongly that they will be far more successful if they stick to what they do best and let those who want this type of performance continue to buy their product. I am confident that they will not run out of customers.</p><p> </p><p>Should Barnes genuine position result in a reduction in their sales then they need to consider evolving to keep up with the desires of the market just like any other business. Staying the same (general bullet construction) and saying they are different is precisely what started this mess in the first place. Misleading shooters is something I will not tolerate especially when Berger is the subject of this misinformation.</p><p> </p><p>Regards,</p><p>Eric</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Eric Stecker, post: 312778, member: 8908"] Idig, I am responding to your post not because I wish to rebut you but rather because there are ideas related to your post that need to be communicated to others who read these forums but do not post. These forums serve as the fire by which all (product) metal is tested. Manufacturers throughout the entire firearms industry are primarily concerned about one thing - keeping their business alive. Each manufacturer produces a product that [B][I]IS [/I][/B]good, mediocre or bad. Unfortunately, their promotional materials will ALWAYS paint them as being good regardless of their true quality (or lack of). The problem with this is, just like every other product the actual results produced by the product is fixed regardless of the way a particular manufacturer promotes the product. These forums serve as a [I]Consumer Reports[/I] of sorts by allowing everyone and anyone the ability to share their experiences with firearms industry products. If you find that on a particular forum certain products are acclaimed or ridiculed you should consider why. No one should make a judgment from any one posting but rather take into account all that is posted about a given product. Each of us who read these posts are capable of sorting out for ourselves what is important to us and what is not. I mention all of this because I believe there is a greater issue with which we as shooting sports supporters should be concerned. The firearms industry and shooting sports is among a list of a few groups which is under attack by those who wish to see the whole of the shooting sports go away forever. The reason why I am so intensely frustrated by misinformation spread by those within the industry is because I strongly believe that those who do such things are focused on their own self interests and not those of the shooting sports as a whole. This behavior hurts the shooting sports by producing bad experiences. What I mean is no marketing hype or product positioning will overcome what will actually happen when you use a particular product. If you are lead to believe that a particular product will perform in a certain way and it doesn't, you will have a bad [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]experience[/FONT][/COLOR]. Rack up enough of these bad [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]experiences[/FONT][/COLOR] and you are less likely to continue to be active in the shooting sports. The weakening of the shooting sports by misinformation which produces bad experiences is something that I will oppose at every opportunity. Some of you might be scratching your head and saying "what the heck is Eric talking about?" Let me give you an example. Berger makes many bullets used for shooting varmints. When I am asked "how explosive are they on varmints?" my response every time is "not as explosive as Nosler ballistic tips." This is the truth. I could easily say "they are very explosive" which neither tells the shooter anything specific nor helps them improve their shooting experience. The fact is those who use Bergers on varmint do so because they are very precise and [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]capable[/FONT][/COLOR] of excellent accuracy. The amount of "explosiveness" is good (and capable of killing any varmint you hit) but it is not as explosive as Nosler's ballistic tips or frankly any tipped bullets. When those who ask me "how explosive are they on varmints?" are given this truthful answer they are then empowered to decide whether they are more interested in explosive expansion or enhanced accuracy. [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I have been telling varmint hunters this truth for years and we sell a large amount of varmint bullets to those who are very happy to shoot them[/FONT][/COLOR]. If I were Barnes, I would handle this situation very differently. What I would do is say that we (in this paragraph I am pretending to be Barnes) produce a bullet that will penetrate deeply and retain a majority of its weight. Our bullets are more successful at achieving this result than any others on the market (which is true). The accuracy level of our bullets is capable of meeting the needs of any game hunter up to and including shots at medium range. Also, the deep penetrating and high weight retaining characteristics of our bullets makes them ideal for hunting the world's largest and most dangerous game. The fact is there are hunters who are very satisfied with this level of performance. By taking this position publicly Barnes is speaking truthfully and is still satisfying the needs of those who loyally use their product. When the bullets perform as they are accurately described you get a hunter who has a good experience because he got results he expected. If anyone thinks that communicating this position publicly will hurt Barnes position in their portion of the market then they have not been reading the posts of those such as Long Time Long Ranger who have no intension of shooting a different bullet. If we go back to the original article that prompted my response article which lead to this latest rebuttal article by Thad we will see that Barnes was trying to position themselves as something that they are not. I believe strongly that they will be far more successful if they stick to what they do best and let those who want this type of performance continue to buy their product. I am confident that they will not run out of customers. Should Barnes genuine position result in a reduction in their sales then they need to consider evolving to keep up with the desires of the market just like any other business. Staying the same (general bullet construction) and saying they are different is precisely what started this mess in the first place. Misleading shooters is something I will not tolerate especially when Berger is the subject of this misinformation. Regards, Eric [/QUOTE]
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