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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Barnes Bullet Stabilization- Specifically .458 Lott 500 grain
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<blockquote data-quote="JimmyJack54" data-source="post: 2849867" data-attributes="member: 117255"><p>Thank you <strong>fordy</strong> for your comments and insight.</p><p></p><p>As previously mentioned, I've had good experiences in the past with Barnes. Two items of concern for me with 500 grain Barnes TSX in 458 Lott: 1) longer bullet for weight=decreased case capacity (would I be falling prey to same issues of 458 WM?); 2) stabilization issues I've read about on this site, previously mentioned, and others?</p><p></p><p>Barnes and Federal, most readily available commercial ammunition for me, is loaded with the 500 grain bullet. I had thought a 450 grain RSX might be a better option for me. After your comments I did some additional research and found some specialty loaded ammunition in 450 grain TSX that I may give a try. Here is what they have to say:</p><p></p><p> I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. and while the Lott version improves this situation some, 500 gr. bullets recoil much more and accomplish little penetration benefit over 450 gr. bullets, if designed correctly and the <strong>TSX</strong> bullet is of excellent design. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (<em>read flesh and bone</em>) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., (<em>we will make one 500 gr. <strong>TSX</strong> load for the Lott</em>) which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. for the .458 were conceived as more of a marketing practice (<em>WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE</em>) to the "heavier is better" crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply AS A GENERAL RULE if all else is equal.</p><p></p><p>Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures WELL below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.</p><p></p><p>If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. <strong>TSX</strong>option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (<em>and I'll be doing that in 2022</em>) I'll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.</p><p></p><p>We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear in my 20's, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets @ 2,500 fps and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.</p><p></p><p>SAAMI gives a maximum cartridge OAL (<em>over-all-length</em>) of 3.600 inches for the 458 Lott cartridge. Because of where Barnes places the crimp groove on this bullet, we have an OAL of 3.617 inches (+/-.005) or .017 inch over SAAMI. These loads fit the magazine boxes of both my test rifles with the CZ having over a half-inch extra room. The Montana Rifle Company magazine box accepts the cartridge and functions flawlessly in feeding/cycling, but there is no room to spare. I doubt any magazine boxes are going to be so tight that .017 inch will matter, but I wanted to publish these specs…..</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JimmyJack54, post: 2849867, member: 117255"] Thank you [B]fordy[/B] for your comments and insight. As previously mentioned, I’ve had good experiences in the past with Barnes. Two items of concern for me with 500 grain Barnes TSX in 458 Lott: 1) longer bullet for weight=decreased case capacity (would I be falling prey to same issues of 458 WM?); 2) stabilization issues I’ve read about on this site, previously mentioned, and others? Barnes and Federal, most readily available commercial ammunition for me, is loaded with the 500 grain bullet. I had thought a 450 grain RSX might be a better option for me. After your comments I did some additional research and found some specialty loaded ammunition in 450 grain TSX that I may give a try. Here is what they have to say: I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. and while the Lott version improves this situation some, 500 gr. bullets recoil much more and accomplish little penetration benefit over 450 gr. bullets, if designed correctly and the [B]TSX[/B] bullet is of excellent design. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium ([I]read flesh and bone[/I]) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., ([I]we will make one 500 gr. [B]TSX[/B] load for the Lott[/I]) which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. for the .458 were conceived as more of a marketing practice ([I]WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE[/I]) to the "heavier is better" crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply AS A GENERAL RULE if all else is equal. Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures WELL below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh. If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. [B]TSX[/B]option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, ([I]and I'll be doing that in 2022[/I]) I'll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids. We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear in my 20's, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets @ 2,500 fps and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life. SAAMI gives a maximum cartridge OAL ([I]over-all-length[/I]) of 3.600 inches for the 458 Lott cartridge. Because of where Barnes places the crimp groove on this bullet, we have an OAL of 3.617 inches (+/-.005) or .017 inch over SAAMI. These loads fit the magazine boxes of both my test rifles with the CZ having over a half-inch extra room. The Montana Rifle Company magazine box accepts the cartridge and functions flawlessly in feeding/cycling, but there is no room to spare. I doubt any magazine boxes are going to be so tight that .017 inch will matter, but I wanted to publish these specs….. [/QUOTE]
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Barnes Bullet Stabilization- Specifically .458 Lott 500 grain
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