Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
Articles
Latest reviews
Author list
Classifieds
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles and first posts only
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
B.c. Crazy!
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="RockyMtnMT" data-source="post: 1461591" data-attributes="member: 7999"><p>Thanks Rich for digging this up.</p><p></p><p>Rich and I were on the phone the other day and he told me about this thread and I asked him to find it if he could. </p><p></p><p>As a bullet maker I have lots of thoughts on this. As a hunter my thoughts are directed toward the sport. After all it is hunting that has gotten me into the bullet business. Our bullet business is the culmination of years of searching for a better bullet. Probably the biggest thing that pushed both Brian and I was meat damage. Both of us grew up hunting because we needed the meat. Absolutely violated me to make a solid behind the shoulder shot and lose the onside shoulder to bloodshot meat. </p><p></p><p>As hunters we figure there are 2 things that matter most and neither should be sacrificed for the other. Accuracy and terminal performance. If you don't have consistent accuracy then your probability of a good hit are reduced and if you sacrifice terminal performance at one end of the impact velocity scale or the other, then your probability of a clean kill goes down. This to me becomes a balancing act that must be paid attention to.</p><p></p><p>My long range pursuit has evolved when it comes to hunting big game. Totally a personal thing. I now kind of look at 1000 as a cut off point due to time of flight and uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. This does not mean that I will not take a 1200y shot again if all is right. I just am no longer trying to find that shot just to see if I can get it done on the animal. I look at hunting from the muzzle out to what ever the realistic long range is for the hunter. Most all of us have spent countless time and resources working on the 1000y plus shot only to go out and take our game at under 400y. These shorter normal range shots just seem easier to come up with or present themselves more often. I personally look hard at my hunting rig for max point blank range. For those who don't know, that is the range that your setup will hit a 5" radius when held center. The farther out this distance is the more lethal I am as a hunter. If I have a rifle that is set up to hold hair out to 400+ yards and then use dial ups after that out to my personal/equipment max, I am very confident. Inside 450y animals are often much more aware of my presence and time to get a shot off is limited. Beyond this distance the animals are typically not aware of my presence and time to make solid adjustments for wind and drop is more available. </p><p></p><p>To me this conversation comes down to the rabbit and the tortoise. At some point down range the heavier slower higher bc bullet will always pass up the faster lower bc bullet. Question is at what point down range does this happen. Often the rabbit continues to win the race for wind and drop past the point of range comfort or usable vel. I see lots of guys come on here looking for a fast flat rifle out to relatively long range, like a 300 rum. Inevitably the first advise they will get is to load it with the heaviest highest bc bullet that the market offers. Suddenly they have loaded their new hot rod down to 30-06 speed and have 30-06 performance out to 800y before the heavy bullet starts to take over. Or if you compare the big heavy to a more moderate weight bullet in the rum, the big heavy can't overcome the much faster bullet until after 1000y. Thus rendering the rifle set up less effective for the vast majority of it's useful range.</p><p></p><p>This whole thread has done a great job of not getting into a ****ing match comparing favorite bullets and I will keep it that way. I will make a comparison of ballistics between two of my own bullets. Since I am in the process of deciding on a rifle build of my own and how I have made some decisions. I am going to do either a 280ai or a 280 Sherman. This rifle will be built with weight in mind (less because I am getting old) with a 22" Proof sedero light in an 8" twist. This way I can run up to our 177g Hammer Hunter. Currently our highest bc hunting bullet in 7mm. Kind of figured this would be the bullet for me. Then I did what I tell customers all the time and ran the numbers in JBM. In the 280ai we are getting 3200fps comfortably with our 143g Hammer Hunter. We can get 2800 comfortably with the 177g. The two bc's are .253 and .313 g7. I ran the numbers using standard atmosphere at 5000' elev. </p><p></p><p>143g bullet at 3200fps</p><p>Max effective range=950y (1800fps)</p><p>Max point blank range=402y</p><p>600y with 300y zero=6.5moa drop and 3.0moa drift (10mph full value) impact vel of 2263fps</p><p></p><p>177g bullet at 2800fps</p><p>Max effective range=875y</p><p>Max point blank range=361y</p><p>600y with 300y zero=8.2moa drop and 2.9moa drift with an impact vel of 2084fps</p><p></p><p>In this comparison there is no good reason to use the bigger heavier higher bc bullet. Not for hunting. For trying to hit targets farther out than the effective hunting range then you will find a little better performance for the slower bullet.</p><p></p><p>Thanks Rich. Great thread!</p><p></p><p>Steve</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="RockyMtnMT, post: 1461591, member: 7999"] Thanks Rich for digging this up. Rich and I were on the phone the other day and he told me about this thread and I asked him to find it if he could. As a bullet maker I have lots of thoughts on this. As a hunter my thoughts are directed toward the sport. After all it is hunting that has gotten me into the bullet business. Our bullet business is the culmination of years of searching for a better bullet. Probably the biggest thing that pushed both Brian and I was meat damage. Both of us grew up hunting because we needed the meat. Absolutely violated me to make a solid behind the shoulder shot and lose the onside shoulder to bloodshot meat. As hunters we figure there are 2 things that matter most and neither should be sacrificed for the other. Accuracy and terminal performance. If you don't have consistent accuracy then your probability of a good hit are reduced and if you sacrifice terminal performance at one end of the impact velocity scale or the other, then your probability of a clean kill goes down. This to me becomes a balancing act that must be paid attention to. My long range pursuit has evolved when it comes to hunting big game. Totally a personal thing. I now kind of look at 1000 as a cut off point due to time of flight and uncontrolled atmospheric conditions. This does not mean that I will not take a 1200y shot again if all is right. I just am no longer trying to find that shot just to see if I can get it done on the animal. I look at hunting from the muzzle out to what ever the realistic long range is for the hunter. Most all of us have spent countless time and resources working on the 1000y plus shot only to go out and take our game at under 400y. These shorter normal range shots just seem easier to come up with or present themselves more often. I personally look hard at my hunting rig for max point blank range. For those who don't know, that is the range that your setup will hit a 5" radius when held center. The farther out this distance is the more lethal I am as a hunter. If I have a rifle that is set up to hold hair out to 400+ yards and then use dial ups after that out to my personal/equipment max, I am very confident. Inside 450y animals are often much more aware of my presence and time to get a shot off is limited. Beyond this distance the animals are typically not aware of my presence and time to make solid adjustments for wind and drop is more available. To me this conversation comes down to the rabbit and the tortoise. At some point down range the heavier slower higher bc bullet will always pass up the faster lower bc bullet. Question is at what point down range does this happen. Often the rabbit continues to win the race for wind and drop past the point of range comfort or usable vel. I see lots of guys come on here looking for a fast flat rifle out to relatively long range, like a 300 rum. Inevitably the first advise they will get is to load it with the heaviest highest bc bullet that the market offers. Suddenly they have loaded their new hot rod down to 30-06 speed and have 30-06 performance out to 800y before the heavy bullet starts to take over. Or if you compare the big heavy to a more moderate weight bullet in the rum, the big heavy can't overcome the much faster bullet until after 1000y. Thus rendering the rifle set up less effective for the vast majority of it's useful range. This whole thread has done a great job of not getting into a ****ing match comparing favorite bullets and I will keep it that way. I will make a comparison of ballistics between two of my own bullets. Since I am in the process of deciding on a rifle build of my own and how I have made some decisions. I am going to do either a 280ai or a 280 Sherman. This rifle will be built with weight in mind (less because I am getting old) with a 22" Proof sedero light in an 8" twist. This way I can run up to our 177g Hammer Hunter. Currently our highest bc hunting bullet in 7mm. Kind of figured this would be the bullet for me. Then I did what I tell customers all the time and ran the numbers in JBM. In the 280ai we are getting 3200fps comfortably with our 143g Hammer Hunter. We can get 2800 comfortably with the 177g. The two bc's are .253 and .313 g7. I ran the numbers using standard atmosphere at 5000' elev. 143g bullet at 3200fps Max effective range=950y (1800fps) Max point blank range=402y 600y with 300y zero=6.5moa drop and 3.0moa drift (10mph full value) impact vel of 2263fps 177g bullet at 2800fps Max effective range=875y Max point blank range=361y 600y with 300y zero=8.2moa drop and 2.9moa drift with an impact vel of 2084fps In this comparison there is no good reason to use the bigger heavier higher bc bullet. Not for hunting. For trying to hit targets farther out than the effective hunting range then you will find a little better performance for the slower bullet. Thanks Rich. Great thread! Steve [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
B.c. Crazy!
Top